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Biggie9
F L I N T O I D
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Josh, I think if you read ALL the posts, you will see many who are patiently awaiting the results of the investigation and then to see what happens then.
It would be nice IF the city even if the finding is the shooting was justified, that maybe they will implement some additional procedures that would have allow for a different outcome in the future.
yes, SOME folks want to blame the victim based on her demographics, but, you know that this is an uncontrolled forum, pretty much; its open to the responsible and irresponsible equally.
you and I have no control overit. what we can do though, is to decide who we will respond too.
frankly, I've decided not to respond to guests and over the top posts. They are nothing but trolls seeking exactly the response you and Adam provided. Don't give them any of your time and energy. Let them pass like the wind. |
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Biggie |
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Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:09 pm |
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Josh Freeman
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
Biggie9 schreef:
It would be nice IF the city even if the finding is the shooting was justified, that maybe they will implement some additional procedures that would have allow for a different outcome in the future.
I hope that the folks that are running the show downtown are capable of doing this. Frankly, I don't have much faith. |
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Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:58 pm |
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Bossman
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| I wasn't there, but I can assure you that regardless of who conducts the investigation the outcome will me the same. (provided the scenario whe have already heard is accurate) That outcome will be to exonerate the officers. As far as a change in policy.....there is no change to implement. The use of force continuum which is adhered to by all police departments indicates that officers are allowed to use an amount of force equal to one level higher than the threat they are facing. In other words, if some one is attacking you with their hands you can use an impact weapon(nightstick). In this case the officers used equal force. Deadly force against deadly force. There have been numerous incidents where officers who felt confident in their ability to disarm a suspect with an edged weapon were severly injured or even killed attempting to do so. I still contend that it is unthinkable that we would ever require our officers to put themselves in harms way because no one likes to see someone killed. |
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Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:04 am |
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rgillmi
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Why aren't these officers being trained to use non-lethal force? Does anyone else remember the high speed chase a couple of years ago in which the rookie crashed and died after not following chase procedures? It just seems as though people should be questioning the training of new officers. It doesn't matter whether she was from a trailer park or the East Village, she didn't need to die. Things seem to be escalating now, and a city council woman was coerced to resign for questioning the actions of the officers decision to use lethal force. I am dissappointed that more people are not questioning this.
Robert Gill
http://www.myspace.com/rob12345dora123 |
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Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:43 pm |
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Ponycar
F L I N T O I D
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| Police are trained to use non lethal force.However, non lethal force is inappropriate when faced with immenent threat of death or serious bodily harm, and the subject demonstrates intent, opportunity, and capability to inflict death or serious bodily harm. Based on everything that has been in the papers and news that seems to be the case. |
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Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:43 am |
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jackson
F L I N T O I D
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None of us who weren't present can say for sure whether the force used was appropriate or excessive. I do think that having an outside agency conduct the investigation is a good idea -- since people who believe the force used was excessive are likely to dismiss a Flint Police Department investigation if the FPD exonerates the officers.
Over years there have been proposals to have an oversight group investigate: a civilian Police Review Board, for example. These go back to the days when the force was virtually all White -- and the allegations of brutality were virtually all against Blacks. None of the proposals has ever been seriously considered by Mayors or Councilmembers.
Finally: there is an all too common concept of "Suicide by Police" in which the "victim" does something so outrageous that police are forced to kill them. It appears that this shooting victim may have -- wittinghly or unwittingly in a drunken state -- committed "suicide by police". We'll never know for certain. |
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Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:28 am |
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rgillmi
F L I N T O I D
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| I have heard nothing since like two days after it happened. Does anyone know if it is still being investigated? I heard the Ombudsman would be looking into it, but I am not sure if that is happening. Whether you agree with the cops or not, I think someone should at least look into it. I also heard that the FBI would be stepping in, but again, no news. Lakisha is in the top 6 though... Hooray. |
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Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:47 pm |
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rgillmi
F L I N T O I D
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| Please explain to me how a 5'2 woman with a 3 inch pocketknife is posing "immenent threat of death or serious bodily harm", ("and the subject demonstrates intent, opportunity, and capability to inflict death or serious bodily harm") on four highly trained (your words) men packing pistols and billy clubs... I too have read the paper and watched the news on this and it is completely ridiculous to think that these officers were that afraid that they felt that they had to shoot to kill. They deal with gangs and robberies and huge fights all the time, why are they that afraid of a 3" pocket knife? I would hope that these cops would have been trained better than this and I would hope that someone in the city is looking into this. I have spoke to many city officials and candidates about this shooting and they too are afraid of this, noone wants to publicly comment and they are waiting for an investigation to be finished. What are they investigating? The woman called 911, the cops came, saw a knife and drew guns and started to shoot. That is the story that the officers told, the other witnesses claim that the woman wasn't that dangerous, that is the only difference in the story. She has a police record and she was drunk and probably even a little crazy, but again, she was a small woman with a small knife, and they were four big bad , highly trained police officers with guns. Hmmm. |
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Tue May 01, 2007 2:37 pm |
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Ponycar
F L I N T O I D
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| You ask how a 5'2 woman with a 3 inch pocket knife is posing the threat of death or serious bodily harm. You state in your post rgillmi, that the woman called 911, the cops came, saw the knife, drew their guns,and started to shoot. You left out the part where the woman advanced on officers making slashing motions with the knife, and failed to heed their requests to put the knife down ( this comes from eyewitnesses at the scene). The part you left out is where the obvious intent, opportunity, and capability comes in, along with the imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm. Can you kill someone, or inflict serious bodily harm with a 3 inch pocket knife ? I say absolutely yes. You ask what are they investigating, they are investigating the incident to make sure the officers followed policy, and that the officers were justified in using the level of force that they used. The fact that the woman was 5'6, and 120 pounds is irrelevent. If she was advancing on the officers making a slashing motion with the knife, attepts to subdue her any other way would obviously put the officers in danger of being slashed. The totality of circumstances ( that will be determined in the investigation) will determine the outcome. Based on the use of force continuum as I know it,the officers actions should be justified. A drunk woman advancing on officers with a knife, and one of the neighbors say "she isnt dangerous" while the woman is still advancing. What are the officers to do ? Take the neighbors word for it ? All she had to do was drop the knife when officers told her to. |
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Wed May 02, 2007 9:53 am |
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rgillmi
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| She would have stopped advancing if they would have shot her in the leg... |
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Wed May 02, 2007 10:00 am |
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Ponycar
F L I N T O I D
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| The fact is, anytime police officers use their firearm,it is deadly force. They are not trained to shoot for the legs, they are trained to shoot center mass of the body, and to fire until the threat is gone. As much as you disagree, it's apparent that these officers where within the guidelines of the use of force continuum, but we weren't there. The use of force continuum, and the totality of circumstances is what will weigh hevily on the outcome of the investigation. |
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Thu May 03, 2007 1:48 am |
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00SL2
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Prosecutor reviewing police inquiry into fatal shooting
Posted by Bryn Mickle | The Flint Journal December 20, 2007 22:00PM
Categories: Flint
FLINT -- Eight months after Flint police shot and killed a knife-wielding woman in a trailer park, the Genesee County Prosecutor's office this week received the results of a police inquiry into the shooting.
Genesee County Prosecutor David S. Leyton is reviewing the case but has not set a timeline for a decision.
Jo Ann Burgett, 46, died April 20 after she was shot several times outside her home at the Shady Acres mobile home park on Western Road.
Police said officers opened fire on her after she advanced toward them with a knife and refused orders to put it down.
While police officers have maintained the shooting was self defense, it drew harsh words from some.
Flint City Councilwoman Carolyn Sims has called it a "senseless murder."
The two officers involved in the shooting spent several months on administrative duty but are now back on regular patrols.
"We did what we thought was in the best interest of the community," said Acting Flint Police Chief Gary Hagler.
Hagler attributed the length of the probe to forensic testing issues and the joint nature of the investigation conducted by Flint and state police.
"It's a very extensive and thorough report," said Hagler, who declined comment on the findings.
Flint police union president Keith Speer believes the shooting will be ruled justified.
"We welcome an in-depth investigation," said Speer.
But one city official questioned why Flint police investigated a shooting involving its officers.
"The Flint Police Department should not investigate their own," said Flint Ombudsman Brenda Purifoy, a former Flint police officer.
Sims, who is now city council president, could not be reached for comment Thursday.
Purifoy said her office received no complaints about the shooting and has no plans to conduct its own inquiry.
Burgett's family could not be reached for comment.
Source:
http://blog.mlive.com/flintjournal/newsnow/2007/12/prosecutor_reviewing_police_in.html
Accessed: December 20, 2007 |
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Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:39 pm |
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rgillmi
F L I N T O I D
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| You are correct, none of us can be sure on what happened that day. But we can be sure of the fact that the city officials and all of the people on Flinttalk that told me and all of the others to "wait for an investigation" got what they wanted. When we stopped talking about this, everyone forgot all about it. There was said to be an investigation by the FBI and the ombudsman, but there are no records of any investigation and the prosecutor has no timeline on his, so it will only be a matter of time before people stop talking and it is all forgotten again. The woman may have been a drunk, you could even call her trailer trash, but she didn't deserve to be shot to death. She had a pocket knife. The fact is that she was from a trailer park. I guarantee if this had happened in Grand Blanc, people would still be talking. |
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Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:28 pm |
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Ponycar
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| Deadly force - Force used with the intent of causing death or serious bodily harm. On the use of force continuum, when a person is assualtive and shows intent, opportunity, and capability to inflict death or serious bodily harm on officers or other people, a deadly force response by officers is appropriate. I have a two and a half inch pocket knife that is razor sharp and could slice someone badly. The officers don't have to wait until one of them are slashed, or stabbed before making the appropriate response. I'll say again, we were not there and certain questions will need to be answered. She obviously showed intent by making slashing motions at the officers. Did she have opportunity, and capability ? We don't know, the investigation will determine that. But, the U.S supreme court ruled that reasonbleness in cases like this will be based from the officers perspective who must make split second decisions in tense situations that are rapidly escalating, and not from the calm vantage point of hindsight ( monday morning quarterbacking). I agree with you rgillmi. It shouldn't matter if this lady lived in the trailer park, project, or taj mahal, any loss of life is tragic and this lady had loved ones who were there.I hope that I'm never in a position that these officers were on that day. |
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Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:25 am |
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twotap
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quote:
I hope that I'm never in a position that these officers were on that day.
Thats for sure. All the armchair cops who believe they would have handled it differently need to sign up for the academy and see how the training for something like this is taught. Like I stated in another thread try having a can of mace or a nightstick plus a pair of handcuffs and lets see you take into custody a 135lb female who is under the influence of drugs or alcohol is armed with a sharp knife and is determined not to be arrested. Sounds easy dont it.  |
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Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:09 am |
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