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Dave Starr
F L I N T O I D
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This situation happened on my block a few years ago. I witnessed it, as did several other neighbors. Did the Flint PD officers handle it properly?
A neighbor drove a semi, & had it parked on our street. The police showed up & said it was illegal to park it on a residential street. The man told the officers the battery in the semi was dead, and asked for 30 minutes to call his wife, as there were heavy duty jumper cables in her car. He told them as soon as she returned, he'd start the truck & move it. The officers left, & came back 15 minutes later, just as the man's wife was arriving. They told the man that the truck was going to be towed & to go in the house. The man begged them to let him start the truck and move it. One officer grabbed the man, swung him around & slammed him into the side of the cruiser & handcuffed him. When this happened, several of the neighbors, and I, started calling to the officers & asked them to let him start the truck & move it. One officer got on the radio & called for backup, saying there was an unruly crowd gathering - I heard the call on my scanner. The next thing you know, several cars arrived, the officers got out, pulling on black gloves & telling everyone to go inside or they'd be arrested.
Some of the people on our block that witnessed this will NEVER have their faith in the Flint PD restored. |
_________________
I used to care, but I take a pill for that now.
Pushing buttons sure can be fun.
When a lion wants to go somewhere, he doesn’t worry about how many hyenas are in the way.
Paddle faster, I hear banjos. |
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:36 pm |
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BAH836
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
Dave Starr schreef:
This situation happened on my block a few years ago. I witnessed it, as did several other neighbors. Did the Flint PD officers handle it properly?
A neighbor drove a semi, & had it parked on our street. The police showed up & said it was illegal to park it on a residential street. The man told the officers the battery in the semi was dead, and asked for 30 minutes to call his wife, as there were heavy duty jumper cables in her car. He told them as soon as she returned, he'd start the truck & move it. The officers left, & came back 15 minutes later, just as the man's wife was arriving. They told the man that the truck was going to be towed & to go in the house. The man begged them to let him start the truck and move it. One officer grabbed the man, swung him around & slammed him into the side of the cruiser & handcuffed him. When this happened, several of the neighbors, and I, started calling to the officers & asked them to let him start the truck & move it. One officer got on the radio & called for backup, saying there was an unruly crowd gathering - I heard the call on my scanner. The next thing you know, several cars arrived, the officers got out, pulling on black gloves & telling everyone to go inside or they'd be arrested.
Some of the people on our block that witnessed this will NEVER have their faith in the Flint PD restored.
Unless a vehicle is blocking the road, driveway or otherwise creating a hazardous condition making immediate removal necessary, it must be tagged with a 48 hour sticker, 48 hours prior to being towed. One of these conditions should have been present if the officers were going to tow the vehicle. I have witnessed countless people beg and argue for their vehicles not to get towed. Typically these people are very passionate in their argument and can become a threat to an officer very quickly, so having not been there and not witnessing the incident, I can only speculate this was the circumstance which led to the man being detained. When onlookers intervened they are essentially interfering/ obstructing and being told to go inside would be pretty standard.
What was the outcome of the incident. Truck towed? Man arrested? |
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:14 pm |
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untanglingwebs
El Supremo
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Just as in all walks of life there are good cops and bad cops. Yes Joe Wilson had issues, but remember he was Deputy Chief of Flint before he was Sheriff. And his problems revolved around campaign finance issues not corruption in office.
Look at Lechota and Majestic with the drug issues and prostitution in order to convict some bad guys. Problem is everyone thought they were murderers at one time.
I always sympathized with Antonio Barber. he lost his job and took his life over issues other officers got away with. There were worse than Barber.
Has everyone forgotten how the news pilloried Barksdale and I believe it was Hetherington for double dipping on their salary in the police acadamy.
How about the lawsuit aginst Murphy and Brady over the Jeffeson Davis incident when they dropped him off on Carpenter and Bray and he got hit by a car.
But what about the officers that don't make the news. The ones who deal with the stress everyday and try to make a difference. There are days they can't even get a real lunch or break because they are so busy.
Williamson and his pissing match with the police never made any sense. Some of his decisions seemed to be made in anger or in retaliation.
I never supported his decision to make David Dicks the Chief. The Citizens Service Bureau was even dumber. Dicks and Connie Johnson both took adversarial roles with some members of the public and in the department.
Petrich and Tolbert were sued by Tom Pabst for beating up a Russian young man because he was dating a white girl. I am told Chuckie Young is suing them now because they arrested him in City Hall. The jail would not take him as the Charles Young in the warrant was over 6 feet tall. Chuckie is not over 5'7".
Botom line is you can't paint all officers with the same brush, they are not all alike.
Many officers inspire trust in the community. I blieve Coffey recently got an award. Schools have fought to keep liason officers that have a rapport within the school population.
There are many variables that affect the crime rate. Sometimes crime goes down and noone knows why. The huge unemployment rate and desparate citizens are making crime rates go up. |
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:14 pm |
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1pissedoffguy
F L I N T O I D
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| Dave,, well according to BAH what you just gave an account of didnt exist. He didnt see it so it didnt happen. All of your neighbors didnt see what you saw because you all didnt have BAH there on hand to intepret the events for you. |
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:28 pm |
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BAH836
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
1pissedoffguy schreef:
Dave,, well according to BAH what you just gave an account of didnt exist. He didnt see it so it didnt happen. All of your neighbors didnt see what you saw because you all didnt have BAH there on hand to intepret the events for you.
Did I say anywhere that the incident didn't happen? No, I didn't, I said without being there I could only speculate on the officer's actions and give possible explanations. Then I asked questions for clarification, which would mean I was interesting in learning more facts of the incident.
Don't put words into my mouth or piggyback off of another poster's example without giving an example of your own to prove that "all cops are useless," and they, "don't do their jobs," which is still your original assertion. |
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:39 pm |
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Dave Starr
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
BAH836 schreef:
Unless a vehicle is blocking the road, driveway or otherwise creating a hazardous condition making immediate removal necessary, it must be tagged with a 48 hour sticker, 48 hours prior to being towed. One of these conditions should have been present if the officers were going to tow the vehicle. I have witnessed countless people beg and argue for their vehicles not to get towed. Typically these people are very passionate in their argument and can become a threat to an officer very quickly, so having not been there and not witnessing the incident, I can only speculate this was the circumstance which led to the man being detained. When onlookers intervened they are essentially interfering/ obstructing and being told to go inside would be pretty standard.
What was the outcome of the incident. Truck towed? Man arrested?
The vehicle was parked at the curb, and was not obstructing traffic. The officers gave him 30 minutes, then came back after 15 to tow the truck. How is standing on your porch and calling out to the officers to give him a chance to move the truck "intervening, interfering, obstructing?????
The man was arrested and taken to jail, the truck was towed. The man lost his job as a result. |
_________________
I used to care, but I take a pill for that now.
Pushing buttons sure can be fun.
When a lion wants to go somewhere, he doesn’t worry about how many hyenas are in the way.
Paddle faster, I hear banjos. |
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:24 pm |
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Dave Starr
F L I N T O I D
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| And, whatever you do, don't mention Madelyn Fletcher or Martin Brock. |
_________________
I used to care, but I take a pill for that now.
Pushing buttons sure can be fun.
When a lion wants to go somewhere, he doesn’t worry about how many hyenas are in the way.
Paddle faster, I hear banjos. |
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:26 pm |
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Dave Starr
F L I N T O I D
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| And, whatever you do, don't mention Madelyn Fletcher or Martin Brock. |
_________________
I used to care, but I take a pill for that now.
Pushing buttons sure can be fun.
When a lion wants to go somewhere, he doesn’t worry about how many hyenas are in the way.
Paddle faster, I hear banjos. |
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:28 pm |
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1pissedoffguy
F L I N T O I D
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BAH, and I still stick by my assertions, and I add the cops in this damned town are often the cause of the problems. Show me where a cop has done anything to prevent a crime, show me where a cop even does anything they are supposed to. I will hold you to the same standards you try to hold everyone to BAH, and be very dismissive of what they say so I will do the same damn thing to you. Cops can't stop crime, I know that, but I have seen where they have even allowed possible evidence in a crime to be comprimised ( in this case, a glove from a shooting suspect at a party store) , I have seen cops handle evidence improperly( again in the shooting I just made refrence to) I also seen cops totally ignore when people indicated they had a possble place for where these shooters had fled to. The cops never went to investigate the location ,which was very close to the scene. So they didnt even do proper follow through. To my knowledge this case was never brought to trial becasue they lack suspects, which they essentially let escape by NOT looking into the possible hiding place. So that is one case , I can bring out more but what's the point? I suspect you are a cop and you will just get all arrogant like cops do when people tell them about the job they are NOT doing. From what I have seen of Flint cops their jobs are as follows" stopping at convience stores to get coffee and or pop, drive around ,occasionally going to a place where they are dispatched and listening ,sometimes politely, the complaints of the people who called them. I have seen a lot of shrugs, blank stares and have encounterd downright hostilty friom them . If thier job is taking down information about the calls they respond to I would say that so many of them seldom jot down any information this is role is in question becasue nobody had total recall of all items of fact,especially if they are so hard working as police supportrs claim they are . What are the cops "duties" BAH? From what I have seen they consist of pretty much looking bored when people are talking to them and not jotting anything down to help them later to make the paperwork they .. so much about doing in correct order. I got a digital voice recorder, bought it OfficeMax , it has a USB port so the info could be rapidly downloaded to a computer, files can be easily kept and these would be so much easier for cops to use instead of writing things down even, do any Flint cops use these? I haven't seen them do that, and I am sure a city as broke as this one could get enough digital voice recorders for all the cops, hell, they would be cheaper than the paper the department probably spends each year. Get the cops all the same model and make of recorder and after each shift either the cops themselves or someone else could download the files. But we know this won't happen, it makes too much sense and it too easy . Recording the information as it comes from the person making a complaint or asking or answering questions would make the much easier to store , there would me immediate access to the information , it would be verbatim as the cops and people actually stated it. And it would make the such dreaded "paperwork" much smaller ,so the cops could be back on the streets much faster. So find fault with this idea BAH, it isn't rocket science and me offering it up avoids the next round where you would start asking me that since I am so quick to find fault I should try to come up with possible solututions. And what work ethic? I know cops who spent more time promoting their own side businesses (while on city time mind you) than filing reports or answering calls or any duties a cop is supposed to be engaged in. But you don't want to hear that and you won't accept any thing as proof,you are a cop.
And Webs, from the stuff you just laid out that posting, you STILL want to beleive in the "goodness" of the FPD? Come,for every corrupt cop there are at least 3 who knew the actions of their fellow cops and did NOTHING to stop it, and since there is no apparatus in place that works for the police to police themselves, the corruption may go even further. And ,,yeah,, what about Madelyn Fletcher, that stain is still on the department because the Flint police never even tried to get out from under that cloud. Sorry BAH, but if you are a Flint cop, your side is losing badly , hell the question should not be "why don't people have more confidence in the Flint PD ?" but rather" why do they have any respect at all? |
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:13 pm |
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1pissedoffguy
F L I N T O I D
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| Dave , it is still a good thing you and your neighbors did intevene, the cops probably would have beaten the truck driver if you hadn't. Next time, get a videocamera going and record everything a cop does, they can't stop you from doing this as long as you dont interfere with them or actually try to stop them,don't say anything , just record it all. The cops will know that you are there and your actions may keep them from going further. I have read experts in law that adovacate people getting digital voice recorders and keeping it with them as they go about their day to day activties, if a cop approaches you ,start the recorder and tell the cop they are also being recorded, but you do have to tell them they are being recorded . I would say if more people did this sort of thing more cops would actually be more polite and they may actually do something they are supposed to. BAH probably really hates me now more lol,,good! |
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:29 pm |
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BAH836
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
Dave Starr schreef:
quote:
BAH836 schreef:
Unless a vehicle is blocking the road, driveway or otherwise creating a hazardous condition making immediate removal necessary, it must be tagged with a 48 hour sticker, 48 hours prior to being towed. One of these conditions should have been present if the officers were going to tow the vehicle. I have witnessed countless people beg and argue for their vehicles not to get towed. Typically these people are very passionate in their argument and can become a threat to an officer very quickly, so having not been there and not witnessing the incident, I can only speculate this was the circumstance which led to the man being detained. When onlookers intervened they are essentially interfering/ obstructing and being told to go inside would be pretty standard.
What was the outcome of the incident. Truck towed? Man arrested?
The vehicle was parked at the curb, and was not obstructing traffic. The officers gave him 30 minutes, then came back after 15 to tow the truck. How is standing on your porch and calling out to the officers to give him a chance to move the truck "intervening, interfering, obstructing?????
The man was arrested and taken to jail, the truck was towed. The man lost his job as a result.
If the vehicle was towed in the time frame you say it was, my guess is that it had previously been tagged (48 hr sticker) and the 48 hrs were up.
I'm sure you've seen the mob mentality on your block when something is happening. The people come running out of the houses to get involved. This is the exact thing the officers are trying to avoid by ordering people back into their houses. There is no need for anyone to "call out" or otherwise intervene other than the involved party. Having to deal with intervening parties is taking the officers attention away from the task they are trying to complete and could be considered interfering/ obstructing. |
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:41 pm |
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Ryan Eashoo
F L I N T O I D
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Come on Friends, Joe Wilson was a very likable guy. He did his job with integrity. Joe is a Flint man all the way.
quote:
untanglingwebs schreef:
Just as in all walks of life there are good cops and bad cops. Yes Joe Wilson had issues, but remember he was Deputy Chief of Flint before he was Sheriff. And his problems revolved around campaign finance issues not corruption in office.
Look at Lechota and Majestic with the drug issues and prostitution in order to convict some bad guys. Problem is everyone thought they were murderers at one time.
I always sympathized with Antonio Barber. he lost his job and took his life over issues other officers got away with. There were worse than Barber.
Has everyone forgotten how the news pilloried Barksdale and I believe it was Hetherington for double dipping on their salary in the police acadamy.
How about the lawsuit aginst Murphy and Brady over the Jeffeson Davis incident when they dropped him off on Carpenter and Bray and he got hit by a car.
But what about the officers that don't make the news. The ones who deal with the stress everyday and try to make a difference. There are days they can't even get a real lunch or break because they are so busy.
Williamson and his pissing match with the police never made any sense. Some of his decisions seemed to be made in anger or in retaliation.
I never supported his decision to make David Dicks the Chief. The Citizens Service Bureau was even dumber. Dicks and Connie Johnson both took adversarial roles with some members of the public and in the department.
Petrich and Tolbert were sued by Tom Pabst for beating up a Russian young man because he was dating a white girl. I am told Chuckie Young is suing them now because they arrested him in City Hall. The jail would not take him as the Charles Young in the warrant was over 6 feet tall. Chuckie is not over 5'7".
Botom line is you can't paint all officers with the same brush, they are not all alike.
Many officers inspire trust in the community. I blieve Coffey recently got an award. Schools have fought to keep liason officers that have a rapport within the school population.
There are many variables that affect the crime rate. Sometimes crime goes down and noone knows why. The huge unemployment rate and desparate citizens are making crime rates go up.
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_________________
Flint Michigan Resident, Tax Payer, Flint Nutt - Local REALTOR - Activist. www.FlintTown.com |
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:55 pm |
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BAH836
F L I N T O I D
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"Show me where a cop has done anything to prevent a crime, show me where a cop even does anything they are supposed to."
I can provide numerous examples of both of these, and new examples arrive everyday.
"Cops can't stop crime, I know that, but I have seen where they have even allowed possible evidence in a crime to be comprimised ( in this case, a glove from a shooting suspect at a party store) , I have seen cops handle evidence improperly( again in the shooting I just made refrence to)"
How was the evidence compromised or improperly handled?
"I suspect you are a cop"
Your reading comprehension is lacking if you haven't figured this out since I have indicated the exact thing several times today.
"you will just get all arrogant like cops do when people tell them about the job they are NOT doing."
Yes, it is annoying when you are constantly told how to do your job by "armchair police" and other people who have become experts by watching Law and Order and CSI. Cops don't sweat it because they deal with it everyday and realize these people, while quick to criticize, are the same ones who are unwilling to do the job.
"From what I have seen of Flint cops their jobs are as follows" stopping at convience stores to get coffee and or pop, drive around ,occasionally going to a place where they are dispatched and listening ,sometimes politely, the complaints of the people who called them."
Cops spend a lot of time driving, it is part of their job. Most of the driving is to and from calls. Cops even stop at party stores for a drink (gasp) or to use the restroom because they are human and need to get a drink and use the restroom. Many times they may even buy something to eat (an obvious travesty) because call volume does not allow for a lunch break. Police are usually a welcomed sight by store clerks, because while the police are there, the store is not getting robbed. You just outlined several parts of what an officer does, so I'm not seeing how this proves they don't do their jobs.
You also conveniently fail to mention the things "you" don't see, such as being shot at, regular vehicle/ foot pursuits, cops being assaulted/ spit on and having to fight to make an arrest, standing in the snow/ ice on 475 or 69 on Christmas at 0400 hrs. because of a crash, picking car seats from the concrete only to find a deceased infant. I could go on, but as you say, "why bother, you've already made up your mind.
"I got a digital voice recorder..... So find fault with this idea BAH, it isn't rocket science and me offering it up avoids the next round where you would start asking me that since I am so quick to find fault I should try to come up with possible solututions."
It is a good idea and many departments use them. The FPD does not issue them, but some FPD officers have purchased their own. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they are not being used.
"And what work ethic? I know cops who spent more time promoting their own side businesses (while on city time mind you) than filing reports or answering calls or any duties a cop is supposed to be engaged in."
And I know many officers who do just the opposite. The vast majority in fact.
"But you don't want to hear that and you won't accept any thing as proof,you are a cop."
You haven't provided any proof to your assertion that all cops are lazy and don't do their jobs. In fact, you will never be able to provide facts showing "all" cops do anything right or wrong "all" of the time. You forget, I never said "all officers" do the right thing "all" of the time, I simply said most do.
"since there is no apparatus in place that works for the police to police themselves, the corruption may go even further."
IA is the apparatus you speak of and several officers have been fired due to IA investigations. Believe me, no officer wants to work around corrupt officers.
"Sorry BAH, but if you are a Flint cop, your side is losing badly , hell the question should not be "why don't people have more confidence in the Flint PD ?" but rather" why do they have any respect at all?"
Part of the problem is the us vs them mentality which you seem to have. Police want the same thing for the community as the citizens and the police work everyday to accomplish these goals. |
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:29 pm |
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BAH836
F L I N T O I D
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"Dave , it is still a good thing you and your neighbors did intevene, the cops probably would have beaten the truck driver if you hadn't."
Right, because the police often just beat people for no reason.
"Next time, get a videocamera going and record everything a cop does, they can't stop you from doing this as long as you dont interfere with them or actually try to stop them,don't say anything , just record it all."
I agree. This way you're not interfering and running the risk of getting arrested. I actually welcome people to record any interaction they have with me because I know I'm not doing wrong.
"BAH probably really hates me now more lol,,good!"
I don't hate useless things either, so no, I don't hate you.  |
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:51 pm |
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BAH836
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
Dave Starr schreef:
And, whatever you do, don't mention Madelyn Fletcher or Martin Brock.
Occurred 34 and 25 or so years ago, so I'd say not relevant to today's police department. |
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Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:09 am |
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