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Dave Starr
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
untanglingwebs schreef:
Look at Flint's demographics. I see many older residents that are afraid to stand up against these street thugs. (except the Mott Park guy with his 2 ltr bottle of pop)
To save money the CATT team and gang units are used sporadically. The police need consistent intelligence on street activities in order to be effective.
We used to have cell phone numbers for some officers so we could pass on info on drug dealing & other crimes in our area. That's been cut off, & we're told to call 911. When we do, we're told the officers have more important things to do.
SO............ CPL |
_________________
I used to care, but I take a pill for that now.
Pushing buttons sure can be fun.
When a lion wants to go somewhere, he doesn’t worry about how many hyenas are in the way.
Paddle faster, I hear banjos. |
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Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:21 am |
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1pissedoffguy
F L I N T O I D
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Dave, I agree with the CPL but I would bet old Leyton would be just salivating to prosecute any person who uses thier weapon to defend themselves. And old BA here would be wailing and crying if one of the bad guys who gets dropped was a black one and the defender was white,so would old Domet, who would likely run to his old ACORN pals/crooks and try to mount a hate crime prosecution against the would be victim. Legal defense for self-defense costs big money, so look into the NRA's insurance policies for one plan they have that covers the CPL holder , I think was over 200 dollars a year for a up to $50,000.00 coverage ,this would cover legal fees, hold on for the the gauranteed civil action brought against you by the bad guy's family whose family member you took out. And the racial thing, very likely in this city , would probably result in violence and riots, which actually may work out fine to get rid of a lot of the vacant houses (not to mention the house of the would be victim being burned down by the relatives of the criminal) so large scale urban rioting and the resultant burning may get some federal funds in the area, finally. And even if the would be victim/criminal was the same race , the would be victim would get no support from the local idiot,,I mean cops. Hell, with the track record I have seen the cops have from Flint there is high degree of probablity that the criminals are related to some of the cops , who won't take thier kin into the jail for processing,( I can tell you at least 3 stories set here in Flint where this was the case) and they simlpy take their kin back home and the whole incident isnt even written down.
So defending yourself is a right I think Dave, but the local assholes who are in power would just set all the legal tools that they have on hand against the intended victim, thus making them still a victim. Like I was told by several authorites who are self defense advocates " after the bad guy is down, then is when all the shit hits the fan for the defender ,this only just the begining of their problems" .
But if you do want to get a CPL, take that training which is required , then go to the internet and see if the Midwest Training Group is offering classes ,if they are, save your money and attend on or more of their classes. Also check out Massad Ayoob's LETHAL FORCE INSTITUTE , he is one of the foremost experts in the field of handguns and self defense , he is also the author of many books and too many articles on the subject to count ( each week he cranks out more articles for several different magazines and sections for books) . I know this subject well, but it is hard row to hoe, trust me. |
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Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:46 pm |
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Dave Starr
F L I N T O I D
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| I've had the CPL for 18 months now, and yes, the instructor did emphasize that the trouble really starts afterwards. I've got a few of Ayoob's books; very interesting reads. |
_________________
I used to care, but I take a pill for that now.
Pushing buttons sure can be fun.
When a lion wants to go somewhere, he doesn’t worry about how many hyenas are in the way.
Paddle faster, I hear banjos. |
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Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:45 pm |
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twotap
F L I N T O I D
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Mi has a castle doctrine which much to the dismay of headline seeking prosecutors and hand wringing acorn type liberals which makes it hard to unleash their leftist bile against an honest citizen defending themselves and family.
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SB 1046, sponsored by Sen. Alan Cropsey, outlines rebuttal presumptions for justified use of self-defense. The bill makes it clear that there is no “duty to retreat” if a person is in a place where they have a legal right to be.
SB 1185, sponsored by Sen. Ron Jelinek, allows for the award of court and attorney fees in civil cases where it was determined a person acted in accordance with the Self Defense Act and where civil immunities apply.
HB 5548, sponsored by Rep. Tim Moore, gives civil immunities to persons acting in accordance with the Self Defense Act, preventing criminals and their families from suing law-abiding citizens.
HB 5153, sponsored by Rep. Leslie Mortimer, puts the burden of proof on the prosecutor to show that a person acted unlawfully in the application of force, rather than the person using the force having to prove they acted lawfully.
HB 5142, sponsored by Rep. Tom Casperson, expands the definition of “dwelling” to include a person’s garage, barn, backyard, etc.
HB 5143, sponsored by Rep. Rick Jones, creates the Self Defense Act and specifies that it is not a crime to use force or deadly force to defend oneself if that person is not breaking any laws when defensive force was used. The person must be facing imminent threat of death or great bodily harm.
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I have had a CPL for 15 years every since I changed my address from genesee county to our second home in roscommon county when I got my 3rd jury duty notice. 2 times in that fiasco known as the genesee county court system was enough for me. I became a permanent resident of N. MI where the local law enforcement agreed that honest law abiding citizens have the right to carry unlike those leftists democrats like old art busch and the disgraced ex genesee county sheriff Joe give me the dough Wilson.
Never had a reason to draw my weapon but of course I dont live in Flint either but if I ever do you can bet it will fall under the rules of the Castle Doctrine Law. I do agree though that if a white person blows away some gangbangin 17 year old punk doing some violent crime in genesee county its possible that the local prosecutors may still attempt to appease the punks family and the community and change little gangbanger into the usual honor role student who was just turning his life around. MY BABY MY BABY  |
_________________
"If you like your current healthcare you can keep it, Period"!!
Barack Hussein Obama--- multiple times. |
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Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:19 pm |
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Elias12
F L I N T O I D
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WOW! Twotap, you certainly gave us a lot of information! I too also believe in the right to keep and bear arms and to self defense. I have one very liberal friend who states categorically that while he is a liberal in almost all respects he always said that the conservatives have this part right and the left has it totally wrong.
I think the fact that most people do have some sort of cell phone is a good way to deter crimes. I also like the fact that most cell phones now have cameras. All good things, if the cops only did their job and ONLY if they have some place to house the criminal..(oops, "accused peoples") . What are some ideas on where or how to house these people? I am thinking some sort of old building retrofitted would do the trick. And downtown Flint has some buildings which would make good places for this. How can we raise money for this project so it meets the federal guidelines though? |
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You fool all the people all the time,if you control the press. By pass the "offical channels" and see what is really going. |
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Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:08 pm |
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BAH836
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
1pissedoffguy schreef:
Why would anyone want to help the cops there Webs? the cops would just tell the drug dealers and pimps and whoever who pointed them out and we would have dead citizens on our hands, cops don't give a shit about anything Webs. We got the best police force for shrugging their shoulders and being totally useless. I think that is needed to be a cop in Flint, the ability to look dumb and shruggin of the shoulders. So dont ask the poor citizens to help the stupid cops out Webs or we will have them leaving their homes alright,in body bags.
You forgot to rant about how some cops don't live in the city. How did that slip your mind? |
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Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:13 pm |
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Adam
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
1pissedoffguy schreef:
Dave, I agree with the CPL but I would bet old Leyton would be just salivating to prosecute any person who uses thier weapon to defend themselves.
I think Layton enjoys being re-elected too much. He might do a plea bargain though. |
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Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:56 pm |
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1pissedoffguy
F L I N T O I D
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| Hey BAH, who gives a rat's ass where they live? All I care is that they do their job, which most don't. And who pulled your chain anyway? Want to challenge me on the fact of the stuff the cops HAVEN'T done? Want to try to defend the corruption in the city? I keep my rants to the stuff connected I know. BA and others don't like what I say because I don't blow smoke up people's asses, because I tell the unvarnished truth of this shithole town. I don't make brownie points but I aint running for office or trying to become the pope so I don't care who likes me or not. Cops in this town are a joke, the selective enforcement and plea bargining that goes on makes this place a joke and the incompetence here is legendary. |
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:26 am |
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BAH836
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"Hey BAH, who gives a rat's ass where they live?"
I figured you would because it is usually the cop haters next line after using "dumb," "stupid" and "ignorant".
"All I care is that they do their job, which most don't."
How much police contact have you had which allowed you to meet the entire 265 man police department and decide that most (over 50%) do not do their jobs?
"And who pulled your chain anyway?"
I'm compelled to respond to ridiculous accusations such as the ones you have made, so the answer is obvious, you pulled my chain.
"Want to challenge me on the fact of the stuff the cops HAVEN'T done?"
Yes, I will take up your challenge. Provide proof of things that you say cops HAVEN'T done. Should be hard for you to provide proof of things that haven't happened.
"Want to try to defend the corruption in the city?"
I cannot defend corruption in city hall, but again, I'd take the challenge to defend allegations against the police department.
"Cops in this town are a joke, the selective enforcement and plea bargining that goes on makes this place a joke and the incompetence here is legendary."
Plea bargaining is a function of criminal justice which is not controlled by the police at all, so you have no argument here. I'm also eager to hear about some of the legendary incompetence you speak of. |
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:58 am |
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back again
F L I N T O I D
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bah, your wasting your time with pissed, the wackjob. this guy hates everything including himself. he is like that one kid down the block who always has something to whine about!!!! a waste of your time. illogical, confused, brainless and forever constipated....  |
_________________
even a small act of goodness may be a tiny raft of salvation across the treacherous gulf of sin, but one who drinks the wine of selfishness, and dances on the little boat of meaness, sinks in the ocean of ignorance.
P.Y. |
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:37 am |
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1pissedoffguy
F L I N T O I D
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BAH ,what would you accept a proof or evidencece that the cops here don't do their jobs? You are probably a cop , a relative of a cop or a cop groupie who would lie for cops anyway. Hate cops? nope,,I don't hate useless things, I just say go around them. And cops are useless. I have enough support for my thoughts to defend them but you , like those idiots defending the Poplars, don't a give a shit anyway, you have made up your minds. Joe Wilson was a cop, he was corrupt, he as the very sheriff and he broke most of the rules, the only reason why he didn't go to prison is because of his friends in office. Let any of us lie in any form we fill out for the any branch of goverment we would face jail time. Not only did he lie he encouraged lying from his subordinates, thus corrupting the entire department. Or how about the fact that families of cops , familes and friends, when they are arrested, are given special treatment? This has been well documented . And since much of the record keeping falls to the police, there is no surprize when the records that are needed to support a citizen's claim just disappear. I am tired of assholes like you defending cops and the whole system when someone complains about how screwed up it is . I remember seeing on the news a couple years ago where a cop was recorded with a digital camera making threats and intimidating a person they had pulled over for a traffic violation, The cop was clearly in the wrong, the recording proved that. But the response from his superior was telling when he said" I am just wondering as to why this motorist had this recording device, what purpose would he have in mind?' Many police cars are equipped with recording devices mounted in the dashboard, they are there to record the events so the police can use it in court. And since we have an adversial system in court I think people should also use digital recording devices in every contact they have with the authorities so they too can use it in court. Don't depend on the cameras the cops have or the recordings they make. Because here in Genesee County I would bet if you suppaonened those recordings they would "disappear" or the equipment would be automatically found to be "defective" and the recordings not useable.
So if someone says things you DON"T want to believe they are making "ridiculous accusations" ? Well there are a lot of things I don't like to see happening BAH, but they do happen . And how do you know things didn't happen? Are you God or something? You are arrogant as hell to think just because you don't want to beleive something happens it doesn't happen.
And BA doesnt like me because I don't back down because he is a black guy ( or at least he says he is one) ,. All we white people are supposed to backdown from a black guy when they say something, like we should quiver in our boots or something or be done in by while guilt and let them win the argument by not engaging in one with them. BA,show me in one past arguments where you made any points against my assertions? You haven't made any,, all you do is make assine faces and attempts at pithy and witty comments, give it up BA, it is not your strong point. |
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:06 pm |
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1pissedoffguy
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And least I be accused of not answering or responding the BAH comments here I contintue. Nope I haven't met all 265 people on the department, but I have met up about 30 or so in the past few years,so I have a fair amount to make an assement. Secondly, cops haven't met 100,000 residents here in Flint but I will would be they make assumptions about the rest of the populace to know how to navigate the waters so having met up with 30 or so out of the alleged or stated 265 you claim to exist is a good sampling. Why should I bend over backwards and give the whole department a break ? If the situation ever arose where I was in the hot seat for something I would nearly gaurantee the thin blue lines would close up ranks and I would not be given the benefit of a doubt from most of them. Keep in mind BAH our judical system is an adversial one, which means we aren't getting together to come to some common understanding and a group hug. What would you accept as proof that cops are often incomptent ? Would lack of a giving a citizen a complaint number be a good indication? Or how about cops not taking down any notes during their time with a person giving an account of what happened? Hell, how about not showing up at all? And how would a citizen proved he or she called? The records are kept by the 911 dispatchers, a branch of the very same people who want to keep their jobs . And I know cops don't do the plea bargining, but the way the report things are put into consideration and when they dont keep accurate records ( if they keep any at all) does make the difference.
I tell people when they call 911, get the operators name and number. Record the time somewhere. Keep track of everyone you talk to , their titles if they will give them. If the cops do show up get the names of the cops or their badge and or car number. Just the other day my friend had to call the cops and when he looked for their name tags or badges he said they didnt have any showing. But he did note the car ( in this case Tahoe) number down. He also knows the day and the time of day he had them out there. But even with all this there is no real guarnatee that anything would come from a copmplaint was filed because ,again, the records are in the hands of the police themselves.
So BAH, I have dealt with the cops for some time. Now I would say your next though would be" I bet you do, you are a punk ass " So here is the situation a person faces here in Flint, if they are angry about something the cops didnt do and complain about it , the cops then start to harrass them. But that is subject for another post,, and it will be postedl, depsite BA" stupid comments |
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:30 pm |
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BAH836
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"BAH ,what would you accept a proof or evidencece that the cops here don't do their jobs?"
Provide the "evidencece" to support your assertion, which was "most cops (meaning over 50%) don't do their jobs".
"You are probably a cop"
There has been no secret about this.
"who would lie for cops anyway"
No need to lie for any officer in Flint because the work ethic of most officers speaks for itself.
"Hate cops? nope,,I don't hate useless things, I just say go around them."
How were you able to come to the conclusion that cops don't do their jobs if you are making a conscious effort to avoid interaction with them.
"Joe Wilson was a cop, he was corrupt, he as the very sheriff"
Yes he was, but we are talking about the FPD, not the Sheriff's department.
"Or how about the fact that families of cops , familes and friends, when they are arrested, are given special treatment? This has been well documented"
This statement is in direct contradiction of your earlier statement which was that officers won't arrest family or friends, but nonetheless, the officer who makes the arrest does not have the power to give any special treatment to a suspect. That power is given solely to the prosecutor. Also, provide your documentation.
"And since much of the record keeping falls to the police, there is no surprize when the records that are needed to support a citizen's claim just disappear."
Another contradiction. How has the above been documented if the police make documentation disappear. Don't you think if your assertion was true the police would make the documents disappear thus making it impossible for you to have documents to prove it?
"I am tired of assholes like you defending cops and the whole system when someone complains about how screwed up it is"
I am tired of having to defend good cops. The cops aren't the only part of "the system," and I agree some of the other parts are screwed up.
"I remember seeing on the news a couple years ago where a cop was recorded with a digital camera making threats and intimidating a person they had pulled over for a traffic violation, The cop was clearly in the wrong, the recording proved that. But the response from his superior was telling when he said" I am just wondering as to why this motorist had this recording device, what purpose would he have in mind?'"
This happen in Flint? If not, you've veered off topic again.
"Many police cars are equipped with recording devices mounted in the dashboard, they are there to record the events so the police can use it in court. And since we have an adversial system in court I think people should also use digital recording devices in every contact they have with the authorities so they too can use it in court. Don't depend on the cameras the cops have or the recordings they make. Because here in Genesee County I would bet if you suppaonened those recordings they would "disappear" or the equipment would be automatically found to be "defective" and the recordings not useable."
Many police cars are equipped with cameras, but there are none in the city of Flint. I have no problem with someone who decides to tape an encounter with police. I suggest they don't point the camera at the officer because there have been many cases where cameras and other devices have been made to shoot as a gun.
"And how do you know things didn't happen? Are you God or something? You are arrogant as hell to think just because you don't want to beleive something happens it doesn't happen."
I asked you for examples of "things" happening that prove Flint police officers do not do their jobs. As of now, you have been either unable or unwilling to provide any proof. |
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:50 pm |
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BAH836
F L I N T O I D
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"Nope I haven't met all 265 people on the department, but I have met up about 30 or so in the past few years,so I have a fair amount to make an assement."
11% is a far cry from the "most" and "all" statements you have been using.
"Secondly, cops haven't met 100,000 residents here in Flint but I will would be they make assumptions about the rest of the populace to know how to navigate the waters so having met up with 30 or so out of the alleged or stated 265 you claim to exist is a good sampling. Why should I bend over backwards and give the whole department a break ?"
So if I met one asshole or idiot in Flint, I would be able to surmise that everyone in Flint is an asshole or an idiot?
"If the situation ever arose where I was in the hot seat for something I would nearly gaurantee the thin blue lines would close up ranks and I would not be given the benefit of a doubt from most of them."
The police do not work on the benefit of the doubt. They work on reasonable suspicion and probable cause. If they have probable cause to believe you committed a crime you would likely be arrested, but according to you the cops don't do their jobs, so you shouldn't have to fear an arrest.
"Keep in mind BAH our judical system is an adversial one, which means we aren't getting together to come to some common understanding and a group hug."
The judicial system is adversarial, but the police are a part of the executive branch of government, not the judicial. The judicial system's goal is to find truth (justice) through evidence and punish or not punish accordingly.
"What would you accept as proof that cops are often incomptent ? Would lack of a giving a citizen a complaint number be a good indication? Or how about cops not taking down any notes during their time with a person giving an account of what happened?"
There may be a valid reason not to give a complaint number or write notes. Without all the facts, I cannot make that determination.
"Hell, how about not showing up at all?"
Police do not dispatch themselves. There are also 43 officers still on lay off plus numerous retirements. The call volume hasn't changed despite the fact the PD has fewer officers to handle the calls.
" And how would a citizen proved he or she called? The records are kept by the 911 dispatchers, a branch of the very same people who want to keep their jobs."
All calls to 911 are documented. Furthermore, dispatchers work under the fire department.
"And I know cops don't do the plea bargining, but the way the report things are put into consideration and when they dont keep accurate records ( if they keep any at all) does make the difference."
They report things as they are reported to them. If there is no record/ report, there would never be a court case leading to a plea.
"Just the other day my friend had to call the cops and when he looked for their name tags or badges he said they didnt have any showing."
My friend said this, my friend said that. OK whatever, maybe they were wearing a coat. Do you have any firsthand examples yet?
"But even with all this there is no real guarnatee that anything would come from a copmplaint was filed because ,again, the records are in the hands of the police themselves."
Tell your friend to call and ask for the status of the report.
"So BAH, I have dealt with the cops for some time. Now I would say your next though would be" I bet you do, you are a punk ass "
Either that or you are one of the unfortunate people who live in a crime filled neighborhood that was prosperous at one time. These good people unfortunately deal with the police on a regular basis as they are reporting crimes in the neighborhood. My experience with the latter is that they are often very supportive and understanding of the PD. If you don't fit into that category then maybe you are, as you described, "a punk ass".
"So here is the situation a person faces here in Flint, if they are angry about something the cops didnt do and complain about it , the cops then start to harrass them."
So you've been harassed by the FPD because they were angry at you? I find this hard to believe since they would have to find the time to do so in between answering the 20-25 calls for service they normally handle in an eight hour shift. |
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:14 pm |
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twotap
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I gotta say this, if the limpwristed PC idiots who run most city governments would get the hell out of the way and let the cops do their job and handle the punks and bangers the way they should be handled Ill bet crime would take a nosedive. I can hear the screams now OH NO not racial profiling and possible rights violations.  |
_________________
"If you like your current healthcare you can keep it, Period"!!
Barack Hussein Obama--- multiple times. |
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:30 pm |
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