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Adam
F L I N T O I D
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By using the stat that black people are dying at a high murder rate I am trying to illistrate there is a problem of black people dying at a high rate. I am trying to get you to focus on the problem of black people dying at a high rate but you keep focusing on b.s. racist perceptions. If I was racist like you keep insinuating I would not be trying to illustrate that there is a problem that black people are dying. I would instead ignore the problem or I could use stats like you used to say that there's more white people and almost as many white people are dying so maybe we should just keep the police on the I-75 patrols and not focus on problem areas.
I understand that semantic and political correctness are obsessively important to you but I prefer to focus on the problem. I don't really care how the stats are stated or phrased it doesn't change the underlying problem the stats are pointing to.
To me I think murder is more important than things like seat belt and speeding patrols. I would probably look at the crime stats and flood places like the north end of Flint and other "murder centers" of our state with state police. Unfortunately for people like you that would mean lost revenue in places like Oaklad county for the infamous seat belt patrols.
I think the sexism stat should also be looked at and studied as well. Since men are the majority cause of crimes we do need to look at that so w can try and stop the majority of crimes.
The argument I am trying to make with my statistical fact is that we have a problem of a high murder rate among African Americans. |
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Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:02 am |
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Domet
F L I N T O I D
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::facepalm::
I don't know what your obsession is with patrols on I-75, I am still really confused why you keep bringing this up.
Semantics and political correctness are irrelevant to me. Basic communication is important, however. We use semantics to communicate and when you are speaking a language all your own, you can't expect me to keep up.
Nobody here has mentioned speed patrols except for you, really. I still have no idea what you're talking about and am starting to wonder what exactly is wrong with you.
If all you are trying to say is that we have a problem with murder among the Black population, that's all well and good. What you don't seem to understand is that I have the exact same problem, except I have moved beyond the high murder rate of African Americans and moved on to asking why.
I don't even know what we're arguing about anymore. That's where I am right now. But I think that whatever it is, there isn't anything I could possibly add more to it, and whether I could or not you would continue posting these insanely, poorly thought out posts that don't make a lick bit of sense. |
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Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:43 am |
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FStar
F L I N T O I D
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Wow. Domet presents clear, factual information and is still derided by the conservative element of this forum.
Thus, the conundrum of arguing with folks who, when presented with facts, ignore them and continue to make their ignorant point based on their own perception of whatever the issue is being discussed. That's why debating someone who relies on talking points from Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity is an exercise in futility.
I do applaud you, Domet for the intelligent discourse you've attempted to bring to this forum. |
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Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:48 am |
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Adam
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
FStar schreef:
Wow. Domet presents clear, factual information and is still derided by the conservative element of this forum.
Thus, the conundrum of arguing with folks who, when presented with facts, ignore them and continue to make their ignorant point based on their own perception of whatever the issue is being discussed. That's why debating someone who relies on talking points from Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity is an exercise in futility.
I do applaud you, Domet for the intelligent discourse you've attempted to bring to this forum.
Read the obituaries or news if you don't think there is a problem with black people getting gunned down than so be it.
Here's some more "opinions" for you
Why Are So Many Young Black Men Being Murdered?
Murder rates increasing amongst black males
Homicide Lowers Life Expectancy of Blacks
Here's another "opinion"
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Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:33 am |
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Adam
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
Domet schreef:
::facepalm::
I don't know what your obsession is with patrols on I-75, I am still really confused why you keep bringing this up.
Semantics and political correctness are irrelevant to me. Basic communication is important, however. We use semantics to communicate and when you are speaking a language all your own, you can't expect me to keep up.
Nobody here has mentioned speed patrols except for you, really. I still have no idea what you're talking about and am starting to wonder what exactly is wrong with you.
If all you are trying to say is that we have a problem with murder among the Black population, that's all well and good. What you don't seem to understand is that I have the exact same problem, except I have moved beyond the high murder rate of African Americans and moved on to asking why.
I don't even know what we're arguing about anymore. That's where I am right now. But I think that whatever it is, there isn't anything I could possibly add more to it, and whether I could or not you would continue posting these insanely, poorly thought out posts that don't make a lick bit of sense.
THere's a lot of people who are actually elected like yourself who don't seem to see there is much of a problem with crime in the black community so police are diverted to places like I-75 instead of the north end of Flint.
I've been trying to use an elementary level explanation for you to be able to "keep up.
I'm talking about the misuse of police resources. If crime is not a problem for places like the north end of Flint "black community" then why have police there? If you look at crime stats and notice a high crime rate among certain populations or areas I think you should divert resources to those areas to lower crime.
I'm glad you can finally comprehend the statements I was repeating over and over. While people and politicians like yourself debate all the causes I think we should be diverting more resources towards these prolem areas. |
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Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:43 am |
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Domet
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
FStar schreef:
Wow. Domet presents clear, factual information and is still derided by the conservative element of this forum.
Thus, the conundrum of arguing with folks who, when presented with facts, ignore them and continue to make their ignorant point based on their own perception of whatever the issue is being discussed. That's why debating someone who relies on talking points from Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity is an exercise in futility.
I do applaud you, Domet for the intelligent discourse you've attempted to bring to this forum.
It's difficult to argue when people are using different metrics. In the world I live in, when presented with information that makes me wrong I learn from it and move on. While I am pretty liberally minded, I have number of pretty strong conservative view points as well. Fact of the matter is had John McCain not shown in the election that he was more willing to placate his party than serve the people, he would have had my vote. Well, that and had he not brought Palin on as his running mate. Palin completely killed it for me - I just couldn't imagine putting another idiot in office. These two things killed his candidacy for me, I just couldn't vote for him. Don't get me wrong, big fan of Barrack, but had McCain stayed his course and got a smarter, more capable running mate I would have been all over the guy.
What it comes down to here is one of logic. I tend to think, if I am wrong about something, live and learn. This simply means that everybody, both cons and libs, have some great ideas - it just depends on who is making the most sense to me and is most supported by the evidence.
I have to wonder, though, are all the arguments on this board like this one? It seems like intelligent discourse quickly degraded into a screaming match.
quote:
Adam schreef:
I've been trying to use an elementary level explanation for you to be able to "keep up.
Clearly you are dedicated - elementary level explanations, elementary reading comprehension and an elementary level understanding of statistics. Hell, I don't think you've be "trying" at all, I think you are actually an underachieving high school student. Sad statement about the state of our schools today, sadly.
I originally wrote a post here deriding you for continuing to be an idiot, but decided it really wasn't worthwhile. What I will say is that your views on police protection are, as I said earlier, without merit and utterly ludicrous. Multiple studies tell us that increased police forces do not equate into decreased crime. Here are two perspectives, conservative and liberal:
http://www.reason.com/news/show/123429.html
Reason is a conservative space on the internet. Their slogan, "Free Minds, Free Markets" can tell you that much. Their interest in reason, which is something you lack, Adam, is why I personally like them most of the time.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/26/weekinreview/26chan.html/partner/rssnyt?_r=2
And of course the New York Times. Good piece though, they really got their facts straight.
I put these articles here because they cover a number of studies. I have access to a couple of them myself, including the one on the COPS program. Read and learn - when you grow up, you will maybe understand that. I hope, at least.
Even the US Government has stated that things like their COPS program have had little effect on crime levels nationally. You know that when the government admits they may be doing something wrong that something is probably incredibly problematic.
I know that since you are an underachieving high school student that reading these reports will go over your head, if you even take the time to read them. I also realize, now, that even continuing to talk with you at any level just eggs you on to continue posting the idiotic drivel you have been, but I had to say something about it. Maybe more intelligent posters or readers will chance upon it and gleam something useful. You certainly won't - that's a lesson you have taught me about you, Adam. You are incapable of understanding anything of a complex nature and to you, instead of actually fixing the problem, you are more upset that you were pulled over by a police officer on I-75 and are looking for reasons why you should have been able to get away with it. "Stupid cops on the highway pulling me over, they should have been in Flint stopping murders!"
When it comes right down to it, most murders are not planned. They are crimes of passion and happen in a moment's notice with nobody suspecting it would have happened. Police forces are largely Responsive and not Preventative, meaning that in instances of crimes of passion, more police cruisers in an area is not going to stop the gun from going off. |
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Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:26 pm |
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Adam
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
Domet schreef:
Clearly you are dedicated - elementary level explanations, elementary reading comprehension and an elementary level understanding of statistics. Hell, I don't think you've be "trying" at all, I think you are actually an underachieving high school student. Sad statement about the state of our schools today, sadly.
I originally wrote a post here deriding you for continuing to be an idiot, but decided it really wasn't worthwhile. What I will say is that your views on police protection are, as I said earlier, without merit and utterly ludicrous. Multiple studies tell us that increased police forces do not equate into decreased crime. Here are two perspectives, conservative and liberal:
http://www.reason.com/news/show/123429.html
Reason is a conservative space on the internet. Their slogan, "Free Minds, Free Markets" can tell you that much. Their interest in reason, which is something you lack, Adam, is why I personally like them most of the time.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/26/weekinreview/26chan.html/partner/rssnyt?_r=2
And of course the New York Times. Good piece though, they really got their facts straight.
I put these articles here because they cover a number of studies. I have access to a couple of them myself, including the one on the COPS program. Read and learn - when you grow up, you will maybe understand that. I hope, at least.
Even the US Government has stated that things like their COPS program have had little effect on crime levels nationally. You know that when the government admits they may be doing something wrong that something is probably incredibly problematic.
I know that since you are an underachieving high school student that reading these reports will go over your head, if you even take the time to read them. I also realize, now, that even continuing to talk with you at any level just eggs you on to continue posting the idiotic drivel you have been, but I had to say something about it. Maybe more intelligent posters or readers will chance upon it and gleam something useful. You certainly won't - that's a lesson you have taught me about you, Adam. You are incapable of understanding anything of a complex nature and to you, instead of actually fixing the problem, you are more upset that you were pulled over by a police officer on I-75 and are looking for reasons why you should have been able to get away with it. "Stupid cops on the highway pulling me over, they should have been in Flint stopping murders!"
When it comes right down to it, most murders are not planned. They are crimes of passion and happen in a moment's notice with nobody suspecting it would have happened. Police forces are largely Responsive and not Preventative, meaning that in instances of crimes of passion, more police cruisers in an area is not going to stop the gun from going off.
You're the one who had trouble understanding what a basic crime rate was. I'm sorry if that is too easy for a genius like yourself to comprehend. You're right I was an underachieving high school student. I only had around a 3.7 gpa. If I'd had made much of an effort I probably could have been a 4.0.
Reread your article again. I agree one cop per police force may not have much of an effect but the bill was passed in 1994 and it appears to me the rate did go down.
I agree there's no precise # for an adequate police force but I think it's quite clear Flint needs more officers. I do wish we had more officers in Flint catching murderers rpaists and violent offenders but it's geniuses like yourself who are in charge and consider seat belts and speeding more of a priority.
I do think more police presence, a faster response and and adequate investigative team solving crimes and making arrests would help cities like Flint Michigan lower crime. If you don't have the officers needed to take criminals off the streets those criminals will stay on the streets continuing their crime spree. Even if police are not on scene to prevent the shooting, if the manpower is there to quickly investigate and arrest the shooter retribution killings can be prevented. |
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Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:22 pm |
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mutt of flint
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
Adam schreef:
quote:
Domet schreef:
Well, Adam, if you want to get personal, let's get personal.
You are welcome to remain ignorant, that's certainly not my problem. What is my problem is when ignorance, such as this, escapes into the world and shapes the views people have about "race." From your sentiments here, it is clear that while you may have humanist views towards saving lives (something I can respect) it is based in your opinion that Black people are just more violent than White people, which is racist and completely unfounded.
Wording is extremely important, not because I'm a peacenik douche bag who thinks everybody should just get along and runs a grammar police hotline 24/7. I think that people like you aren't only bad for the debate but are useless in general, because while people like me are looking at the actual numbers and tracing the root causes of problems, people like you just keep pointing at black people and yelling, "Look, it's just black people - being Black is the root cause of their crime." People like me want to know why there is a higher crime rate amongst minority groups, and we want to view all the possible interactions that cause them. Poverty is a major issue as well as is unemployment, lower income, the list goes on. Pegging it just on black people limits your options and tells us all that you think that Black people are just a nasty problem in their own right.
As I said earlier, I've been looking at crime data and census data going back to 1971 regarding Flint specifically. It's interesting as I run numbers looking at how poverty rates, unemployment rates increase drastically in the city from 1984-1995 - income levels go down, drop out rates increased - this is the exact same time that our crime rates were the highest. When poverty started to go down in the mid-90s, so did crime rates. This is also after the time that "white flight" was happening in Flint - had there been more White people here, suffering the same problems, it would have worked the same magic on them.
When it comes right down to it, your misuse of numbers and your ignorant view of crime being a "Black problem" is disgusting and short sighted. The only propoganda being spouted is your own because, despite being introduced to facts, logical arguments and an attempt to convince you that there is more going on here than just Black people shooting each other, you have chosen to continue spouting your ignorance. While you are welcome to do that, it doesn't change the fact that when it comes right down to it, people like you are holding the rest of us back because your views are so based in the same biased lunacy that told us Black people are an inferior race.
So there it is, Adam my friend. Your ignorant views are self-inflicted wounds that not only damage you, but the entire process. Were the world clear of people with your views, or at least clear of people who are not willing to learn from the facts when presented with them, we would be in a much better place. While I respect your right to say whatever you please, I certainly don't respect you or your views and, in many ways, I hope that your racist perspective doesn't win out in the future because it will only serve to set us back 30 years rather than move us forward towards a conclusion.
You see Adam, and maybe you just don't "get it," but when you say "black people have a higher murder rate and that's all that is important," you are making a spurious argument. I don't know why I have to keep telling you this. You are making an argument that isn't based on science, it isn't based on logic, and it certainly isn't based on evidence. You are using statistical numbers to tell people that Black people are more violent and then asking, "What is wrong with Black people, amiright guys?" And that's what I keep trying to tell you. It has nothing to do with Kumbaya or wanting everybody to just get along. I've been studying and looking at social data for years - amongst anybody I know personally, I am extremely jaded. I see the deaths, the murders, the poverty, the low income everytime I look at stats regarding this issue and I will tell you that I think we're on a bad course. When it comes right down to it, it's not a problem with being Black - it is a problem with being poor, marginalized and in a place where the social norms are radically different than they are anywhere else. It is also a problem with ignorant folks like yourself who are willing to go into the world and say, "Look at this, Black people are soooo violent. Gosh."
Who's the one who didn't understand what a crime rate was?
Black people are dying at a disproportionate rate from being murdered. Is that wording ok for you? Before you can get to the root cause of a problem you need to identify the problem. The problem is black people are dying at a disproportionate rate. Comprende? Before we can get to causal factors it helps to identify a problem.
If you think there's not a reason for concernt with the high numbers of black people getting gunned down than that's your perogative.
Maybe you should start reading the obituaries. Or is that beyond you? I'm not sure what the obituaries read in the 60's or 70's but there sure are a lot of young black males getting gunned down in the north end of Flint here in 2009.
I'm not making an arugument I'm stating a fact. If you are a black male in America you are far more likelier to get gunned down than if you are a young white male.
With politicians similar to yourself running things it's no wonder our state police are focused on areas like I-75 in Oakland county fighting speeders and seat belt violators instead of the north end of Flint where young black males are getting gunned down.
Since you wanna call me a racist why don't you call me a sexist against males as well just to be fair? If you look at the state males are the main killers.
fine. I'll say it. Adam, I see what your getting at in a round about way. Your not statement blacks are the problem, your point out that they are simply murdered more. There's no suggestion of by who and yes, that is a problem. In-fighting and actual racists have a general role in that in my opinion. As far as our community in flint goes, we have a tendency to segregate ourselves from ourselves. We have a tendency of not sticking together and more often we fight less about what we have in common, but more what is different. I also see what your saying about the i75 police. We do need officers in the problem areas, but there are a lot of factors that work out of that favor. Police cuts are one and officers not wanting to risk death is another. there also tends to be an odd policy of "no snitchin" that goes on in areas like north flint. The arm of the law isn't so long that it can arrest without people to testify. I'll never understand the deal with "no snitchin." If you fear for your life along with the greater number of people in fear as opposed to creating fear, one would think you would get together and try to end the fear. I pointed out in my previous post how positive role models in the black community could help change at least some of this, but next we need to not pass on racial stereotypes to our children as white people. You'd be surprised just how little we know about other races when actually in close with them. We don't know jack.
So yes, I apologize adam for the misunderstanding. In the heat of what twotap was saying I mistakenly linked you together with his views, which as I've stated, are quite askew. I will say though that what you stated was very unclear up until your last few posts. Might I suggest explaining a little more before posting fast? Not to be politically correct, but to be fully understood. |
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I'm not a polarized. deal with it. |
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Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:26 pm |
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Domet
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
mutt of flint schreef:
Might I suggest explaining a little more before posting fast? Not to be politically correct, but to be fully understood.
Good lord, that is all I am asking for. Had the man been clear from the beginning, most of this argument would have never taken place.
quote:
Adam schreef:
3.7 gpa
If that's true, and I have no reason to disbelieve you really, then put it to use man. As I stated earlier, the way you were phrasing your sentences is what led to an argument about statistics. Once I realized, after several of your blurry, difficult to read posts, you and I were talking about the same thing I moved on. Why are you so stuck on this matter - you aren't making a good point and instead are focusing on a matter in which you failed to explain adequately what you were talking about. The actual disagreement was based in your extremely unclear language.
As you said, if you made "half an effort" you could have had a 4.0. Put some damn effort into your arguments and maybe we could have an understanding before an argument.
quote:
Adam schreef:
graph
You'll notice that crimes recorded by police and crimes reported to police go down. Again you're using numbers to make an argument, which was the source of this argument. You can't claim causation by numbers alone, you have to have explanation with them that tell us what they mean. Any dip in the total violent crime rates could mean a number of things.
One of the things you will notice, I hope, is that there was NO dip in murder. Looking at the Crime Victimization Survey (which criminologists will tell you is where the real data is) you will see that Murder has stayed at a steady .1 homicide per 1,000 people over the age of 12 since 1973.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/viortrdtab.htm
While there has been a decline in other violent crime categories, you should remember (since you've been yelling about it since page 2) that murder is our focus. While more police have decreased a number of crimes, the category of "Violent Crimes" contains a number of matters, including murder. If murder rates haven't change despite increased police presence, your idea of raising policing levels in order to prevent murders clearly hits the brick wall of facts.
Like I have been saying and continue to say, look into your statistical facts and try to understand them before you start posting them. You posted that little graph of yours thinking you were making an awesome point when really the core of your argument, which was murder, failed to show any real change up or down. I stand by my position - more cops does not equal less murder by default. There is more going on here that needs to be investigated and looked into. |
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Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:49 pm |
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Adam
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
mutt of flint schreef:
fine. I'll say it. Adam, I see what your getting at in a round about way. Your not statement blacks are the problem, your point out that they are simply murdered more. There's no suggestion of by who and yes, that is a problem. In-fighting and actual racists have a general role in that in my opinion. As far as our community in flint goes, we have a tendency to segregate ourselves from ourselves. We have a tendency of not sticking together and more often we fight less about what we have in common, but more what is different. I also see what your saying about the i75 police. We do need officers in the problem areas, but there are a lot of factors that work out of that favor. Police cuts are one and officers not wanting to risk death is another. there also tends to be an odd policy of "no snitchin" that goes on in areas like north flint. The arm of the law isn't so long that it can arrest without people to testify. I'll never understand the deal with "no snitchin." If you fear for your life along with the greater number of people in fear as opposed to creating fear, one would think you would get together and try to end the fear. I pointed out in my previous post how positive role models in the black community could help change at least some of this, but next we need to not pass on racial stereotypes to our children as white people. You'd be surprised just how little we know about other races when actually in close with them. We don't know jack.
So yes, I apologize adam for the misunderstanding. In the heat of what twotap was saying I mistakenly linked you together with his views, which as I've stated, are quite askew. I will say though that what you stated was very unclear up until your last few posts. Might I suggest explaining a little more before posting fast? Not to be politically correct, but to be fully understood.
Thanks. I was trying to keep things simple but people seem to want to "overread" things and focus on in this case racism instead of a statistically high murder rate among black peole here in America. |
_________________
Adam
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Mysearchisover.com
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FB
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Jobs
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Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:19 am |
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twotap
F L I N T O I D
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My views are askew??? Thats funny your the one doing the apologizing.  |
_________________
"If you like your current healthcare you can keep it, Period"!!
Barack Hussein Obama--- multiple times. |
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Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:31 am |
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Adam
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
Domet schreef:
quote:
mutt of flint schreef:
Might I suggest explaining a little more before posting fast? Not to be politically correct, but to be fully understood.
Good lord, that is all I am asking for. Had the man been clear from the beginning, most of this argument would have never taken place.
quote:
Adam schreef:
3.7 gpa
If that's true, and I have no reason to disbelieve you really, then put it to use man. As I stated earlier, the way you were phrasing your sentences is what led to an argument about statistics. Once I realized, after several of your blurry, difficult to read posts, you and I were talking about the same thing I moved on. Why are you so stuck on this matter - you aren't making a good point and instead are focusing on a matter in which you failed to explain adequately what you were talking about. The actual disagreement was based in your extremely unclear language.
As you said, if you made "half an effort" you could have had a 4.0. Put some damn effort into your arguments and maybe we could have an understanding before an argument.
quote:
Adam schreef:
graph
You'll notice that crimes recorded by police and crimes reported to police go down. Again you're using numbers to make an argument, which was the source of this argument. You can't claim causation by numbers alone, you have to have explanation with them that tell us what they mean. Any dip in the total violent crime rates could mean a number of things.
One of the things you will notice, I hope, is that there was NO dip in murder. Looking at the Crime Victimization Survey (which criminologists will tell you is where the real data is) you will see that Murder has stayed at a steady .1 homicide per 1,000 people over the age of 12 since 1973.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/viortrdtab.htm
While there has been a decline in other violent crime categories, you should remember (since you've been yelling about it since page 2) that murder is our focus. While more police have decreased a number of crimes, the category of "Violent Crimes" contains a number of matters, including murder. If murder rates haven't change despite increased police presence, your idea of raising policing levels in order to prevent murders clearly hits the brick wall of facts.
Like I have been saying and continue to say, look into your statistical facts and try to understand them before you start posting them. You posted that little graph of yours thinking you were making an awesome point when really the core of your argument, which was murder, failed to show any real change up or down. I stand by my position - more cops does not equal less murder by default. There is more going on here that needs to be investigated and looked into.
How much is explaing did a higher crime rate in the black community need? It's not my fault you try and over-read stuff.
I thought I was concise and to the point.
I wouldn't have got much more out of it with more effort. I did put a lot of effort into gym class though. I'm a big suporter of phys ed. I also think education in America bascially sucks. I hear a lot of kids coming out of foreign schools know more about America than Americans do when they graduate. I think the government textbooks are particularly atrocious and would be better used for electricity generation. Overall I'm glad I didn't overly expend myself on our non-education system we have hear in "Amerika". |
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Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:41 am |
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mutt of flint
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
twotap schreef:
My views are askew??? Thats funny your the one doing the apologizing.
only you would find it to be a personal flaw to apologize for a mistake. Don't expect the same from me. There's no way of misreading what you said. |
_________________
I'm not a polarized. deal with it. |
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Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:44 pm |
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mutt of flint
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
twotap schreef:
My views are askew??? Thats funny your the one doing the apologizing.
only you would find it to be a personal flaw to apologize for a mistake. Don't expect the same from me. There's no way of misreading what you said. |
_________________
I'm not a polarized. deal with it. |
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Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:46 pm |
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twotap
F L I N T O I D
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| I guess I should apologize to you because somewhere along the way you came up with the notion that I give a flying fu-- what you think. Your just another lib whiner on the forum with the same old tired rhetoric which we have all heard time after time. Oh ya you only have to give a response one time as repeating it only makes you look more foolish. |
_________________
"If you like your current healthcare you can keep it, Period"!!
Barack Hussein Obama--- multiple times. |
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Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:50 pm |
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