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Domet
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Adam, stating that there are higher crime rates amongst Black populations is one thing - there is inherently no problem with that necessarily. Some of the ways you have stated may have come off in an unfortunate way.
The thing is this: demographics has its problems. There is a debate in the statistics community about the relevance of stating "race" specific statistics. It is useful in telling us where problems lay that need have attention paid to them. Unfortunately, some people use these numbers to identify a problem with Black people in general - these numbers have been and are used to make racist arguments about the "inherent nature" of Black people to be more violent than Whites. Obviously, this isn't true, but I think you may be encountering resistance to your statements because, in some ways, it may sound like you are making this statement.
Ethnic stats are really very useful in telling us things about parts of our society. For instance, if you were to drop race and do a crime stats study on "lower class," you would probably find that most of our crime numbers come from "lower class" people (socioeconomic scale). Then we could start screaming about how the poor are the root of all problems, right? This is the tricky nature with demographic stats, especially with regard to "race" because it brings about ugly arguments that are spurious.
There is nothing wrong with saying, as an interesting note, that crime rates are higher amongst Black populations. There is some wrong with then making the connection that crime is higher amongst Black populations because Black people are more violent than Whites. I'm not sure what you're saying here, because your wording is difficult to understand 100% of the time. |
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Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:13 am |
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back again
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sorry about your mother in law. back to the point of contention. you said the kids in your area only view dope dealers and other scum of the neighborhood as role models. i still say your full of it. i don't care how many blacks you know or have met. you made the idiotic statement, now BACK IT UP WITH PROOF! i've met thousands of whites, been to most of their homes and know their kids on a first name basis. hell, some of them actually call me uncle ____. i would not venture to be so arrogant as to make ANY group assumption. people regardless of skin color, economical status and any other damned thing you can come up with ARE INDIVIDUALS!
now do the gottdammed survey. you said it. back that crap up! |
_________________
even a small act of goodness may be a tiny raft of salvation across the treacherous gulf of sin, but one who drinks the wine of selfishness, and dances on the little boat of meaness, sinks in the ocean of ignorance.
P.Y. |
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Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:52 pm |
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BAH836
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
back again schreef:
sorry about your mother in law. back to the point of contention. you said the kids in your area only view dope dealers and other scum of the neighborhood as role models. i still say your full of it. i don't care how many blacks you know or have met. you made the idiotic statement, now BACK IT UP WITH PROOF! i've met thousands of whites, been to most of their homes and know their kids on a first name basis. hell, some of them actually call me uncle ____. i would not venture to be so arrogant as to make ANY group assumption. people regardless of skin color, economical status and any other damned thing you can come up with ARE INDIVIDUALS!
now do the gottdammed survey. you said it. back that crap up!
I don't understand the anger toward Dave for stating an opinion he formed about the youth in his neighborhood through his personal observations and experiences. My personal experiences dealing with many of the youth in Dave's neighborhood lead me to the same conclusions. I don't believe this is true for all youth because I haven't met all of them, and I imagine Dave feels the same way.
Regarding Domet's comment:
"Fact of the matter is that the role models anywhere are people who are successful and are doing well. When you see somebody that is doing well, you gotta think they are doing something right, especially while growing up in a world where material possessions are more important than moral fortitude".
In Flint, many youth gauge success, power, and doing well by who has the "dopest whip," "fattest roll" and "hottest birdy". They overlook the fact that many times these items are obtained through illegal enterprises. The youth seek these items despite the moral issues involved in obtaining them. Before anyone pulls the race card, I've found this to be true with white youth as well as black youth. |
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Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:12 pm |
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Dave Starr
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
back again schreef:
sorry about your mother in law. back to the point of contention. you said the kids in your area only view dope dealers and other scum of the neighborhood as role models. i still say your full of it. i don't care how many blacks you know or have met. you made the idiotic statement, now BACK IT UP WITH PROOF! i've met thousands of whites, been to most of their homes and know their kids on a first name basis. hell, some of them actually call me uncle ____. i would not venture to be so arrogant as to make ANY group assumption. people regardless of skin color, economical status and any other damned thing you can come up with ARE INDIVIDUALS!
now do the gottdammed survey. you said it. back that crap up!
You don't know me, or any of my neighbors, so how do you know what goes on in my neighborhood? I never said ALL blacks, did I? i didn't make a group assumption. Like I said before, I couldn't care less what you think. |
_________________
I used to care, but I take a pill for that now.
Pushing buttons sure can be fun.
When a lion wants to go somewhere, he doesn’t worry about how many hyenas are in the way.
Paddle faster, I hear banjos. |
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Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:26 pm |
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back again
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"Role models here are the dealers with the big cars & pockets full of cash & drugs. How are they victims when they willingly choose that life style?"
oh actually, i know you quite well. |
_________________
even a small act of goodness may be a tiny raft of salvation across the treacherous gulf of sin, but one who drinks the wine of selfishness, and dances on the little boat of meaness, sinks in the ocean of ignorance.
P.Y. |
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Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:16 pm |
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Adam
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
Domet schreef:
Adam, stating that there are higher crime rates amongst Black populations is one thing - there is inherently no problem with that necessarily. Some of the ways you have stated may have come off in an unfortunate way.
The thing is this: demographics has its problems. There is a debate in the statistics community about the relevance of stating "race" specific statistics. It is useful in telling us where problems lay that need have attention paid to them. Unfortunately, some people use these numbers to identify a problem with Black people in general - these numbers have been and are used to make racist arguments about the "inherent nature" of Black people to be more violent than Whites. Obviously, this isn't true, but I think you may be encountering resistance to your statements because, in some ways, it may sound like you are making this statement.
Ethnic stats are really very useful in telling us things about parts of our society. For instance, if you were to drop race and do a crime stats study on "lower class," you would probably find that most of our crime numbers come from "lower class" people (socioeconomic scale). Then we could start screaming about how the poor are the root of all problems, right? This is the tricky nature with demographic stats, especially with regard to "race" because it brings about ugly arguments that are spurious.
There is nothing wrong with saying, as an interesting note, that crime rates are higher amongst Black populations. There is some wrong with then making the connection that crime is higher amongst Black populations because Black people are more violent than Whites. I'm not sure what you're saying here, because your wording is difficult to understand 100% of the time.
What's unfortunate is young black males getting gunned down in places like Flint Michigan.
I do think a detailed racial study should be done other than just the random prayor vigil. I don'th think poverty alone can account for the huge difference between the murder rates.
I'm saying black people have a higher murder rate and wording isn't important when people are dying. After we stop people getting gunned down then maybe is a better time to worry about b.s. things like semantics. I also don't think people like you are very helpful in debates like this. We should be focusing on the real and serious problem that is obvious and real and not mitigating it with "Kumbaya" type proaganda. |
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Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:17 pm |
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mutt of flint
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| I'm curious what you think about the fact that more blacks are wrongfully arrested than whites. Or is that a myth? |
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I'm not a polarized. deal with it. |
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Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:34 am |
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Domet
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Well, Adam, if you want to get personal, let's get personal.
quote:
Adam schreef:
I do think a detailed racial study should be done other than just the random prayor vigil. I don'th think poverty alone can account for the huge difference between the murder rates.
You are welcome to remain ignorant, that's certainly not my problem. What is my problem is when ignorance, such as this, escapes into the world and shapes the views people have about "race." From your sentiments here, it is clear that while you may have humanist views towards saving lives (something I can respect) it is based in your opinion that Black people are just more violent than White people, which is racist and completely unfounded.
Wording is extremely important, not because I'm a peacenik douche bag who thinks everybody should just get along and runs a grammar police hotline 24/7. I think that people like you aren't only bad for the debate but are useless in general, because while people like me are looking at the actual numbers and tracing the root causes of problems, people like you just keep pointing at black people and yelling, "Look, it's just black people - being Black is the root cause of their crime." People like me want to know why there is a higher crime rate amongst minority groups, and we want to view all the possible interactions that cause them. Poverty is a major issue as well as is unemployment, lower income, the list goes on. Pegging it just on black people limits your options and tells us all that you think that Black people are just a nasty problem in their own right.
As I said earlier, I've been looking at crime data and census data going back to 1971 regarding Flint specifically. It's interesting as I run numbers looking at how poverty rates, unemployment rates increase drastically in the city from 1984-1995 - income levels go down, drop out rates increased - this is the exact same time that our crime rates were the highest. When poverty started to go down in the mid-90s, so did crime rates. This is also after the time that "white flight" was happening in Flint - had there been more White people here, suffering the same problems, it would have worked the same magic on them.
When it comes right down to it, your misuse of numbers and your ignorant view of crime being a "Black problem" is disgusting and short sighted. The only propoganda being spouted is your own because, despite being introduced to facts, logical arguments and an attempt to convince you that there is more going on here than just Black people shooting each other, you have chosen to continue spouting your ignorance. While you are welcome to do that, it doesn't change the fact that when it comes right down to it, people like you are holding the rest of us back because your views are so based in the same biased lunacy that told us Black people are an inferior race.
So there it is, Adam my friend. Your ignorant views are self-inflicted wounds that not only damage you, but the entire process. Were the world clear of people with your views, or at least clear of people who are not willing to learn from the facts when presented with them, we would be in a much better place. While I respect your right to say whatever you please, I certainly don't respect you or your views and, in many ways, I hope that your racist perspective doesn't win out in the future because it will only serve to set us back 30 years rather than move us forward towards a conclusion.
You see Adam, and maybe you just don't "get it," but when you say "black people have a higher murder rate and that's all that is important," you are making a spurious argument. I don't know why I have to keep telling you this. You are making an argument that isn't based on science, it isn't based on logic, and it certainly isn't based on evidence. You are using statistical numbers to tell people that Black people are more violent and then asking, "What is wrong with Black people, amiright guys?" And that's what I keep trying to tell you. It has nothing to do with Kumbaya or wanting everybody to just get along. I've been studying and looking at social data for years - amongst anybody I know personally, I am extremely jaded. I see the deaths, the murders, the poverty, the low income everytime I look at stats regarding this issue and I will tell you that I think we're on a bad course. When it comes right down to it, it's not a problem with being Black - it is a problem with being poor, marginalized and in a place where the social norms are radically different than they are anywhere else. It is also a problem with ignorant folks like yourself who are willing to go into the world and say, "Look at this, Black people are soooo violent. Gosh." |
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Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:15 am |
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Domet
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quote:
mutt of flint schreef:
I'm curious what you think about the fact that more blacks are wrongfully arrested than whites. Or is that a myth?
Heya Mutt. There's a lot to be said on this topic that I don't know there really is time enough for me to get into right now. What I did want to say to you, though... it largely isn't a myth - it's a question of wording. Do Black people get persecuted for being black? Yes, they certainly do. There are numerous studies (and if you give me some time I will find you some) which tell us about "Driving While Black" or being unfairly focused on because of skin color.
There is some "myth" though - I believe (and this is from memory, I will double check) that Black people are still arrested for actually committing crimes. It isn't a matter of unfairly arresting them in some cases - they still may have committed the crime.. it's a matter of focus. There is more focus on arresting a crack user than a coccaine user, despite the drugs being extremely similar. There is more focus on "inner-city crime" than any other geographical region. So I think the actual argument is that there is a very biased system toward minorities. Historically, racism certainly does prejudice jurors, officers and the legal system in general allowing incidents in which a Black man can be convicted and sentenced in days whereas a white man may get off for the same crime. I am not an actual criminologist by training so my understanding of the legal system in that regard is largely shaped by the few studies I have read on it. There are studies, though, that tell us that the justice system is in many ways still biased against minority populations. Whether this fact would help explain why the numbers are so disproportionate, I don't think so.
Now, if you're talking about people just getting arrested unfairly in general, I am actually unsure and wouldn't be able to fairly answer that question. Had I to venture a guess without looking at data, I would say yes that probably does happen more often. That thought would be based off what I do know about racism present in the US generally speaking. If I have the time today, I may take a second and look up some numbers. |
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Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:31 am |
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back again
F L I N T O I D
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thank you both...........a breath of fresh air......  |
_________________
even a small act of goodness may be a tiny raft of salvation across the treacherous gulf of sin, but one who drinks the wine of selfishness, and dances on the little boat of meaness, sinks in the ocean of ignorance.
P.Y. |
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Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:08 pm |
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mutt of flint
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
Domet schreef:
quote:
mutt of flint schreef:
I'm curious what you think about the fact that more blacks are wrongfully arrested than whites. Or is that a myth?
Heya Mutt. There's a lot to be said on this topic that I don't know there really is time enough for me to get into right now. What I did want to say to you, though... it largely isn't a myth - it's a question of wording. Do Black people get persecuted for being black? Yes, they certainly do. There are numerous studies (and if you give me some time I will find you some) which tell us about "Driving While Black" or being unfairly focused on because of skin color.
There is some "myth" though - I believe (and this is from memory, I will double check) that Black people are still arrested for actually committing crimes. It isn't a matter of unfairly arresting them in some cases - they still may have committed the crime.. it's a matter of focus. There is more focus on arresting a crack user than a coccaine user, despite the drugs being extremely similar. There is more focus on "inner-city crime" than any other geographical region. So I think the actual argument is that there is a very biased system toward minorities. Historically, racism certainly does prejudice jurors, officers and the legal system in general allowing incidents in which a Black man can be convicted and sentenced in days whereas a white man may get off for the same crime. I am not an actual criminologist by training so my understanding of the legal system in that regard is largely shaped by the few studies I have read on it. There are studies, though, that tell us that the justice system is in many ways still biased against minority populations. Whether this fact would help explain why the numbers are so disproportionate, I don't think so.
Now, if you're talking about people just getting arrested unfairly in general, I am actually unsure and wouldn't be able to fairly answer that question. Had I to venture a guess without looking at data, I would say yes that probably does happen more often. That thought would be based off what I do know about racism present in the US generally speaking. If I have the time today, I may take a second and look up some numbers.
well of course. I apologize for the misunderstanding, but the part about it being a myth was a bit of sarcasm. I know there is a lot of wrongful arrest in the black community still. today I saw a report about a harvard professor arrested for trying to "break in" his own house. police tried to justify the arrest by saying that he was loud and appeared violent, but when you look at the guy, its not hard to see how he would react in that situation. I'm sure he got loud when they put the cuffs on him, anyone would.
I'm also not tricked into believing that every jailed black person is free of their conviction. it is, as you said, a matter of viewing who is successful and why they are. I see everyday more and more examples of positive role models in the black community though, & before twotap says it, not al sharpton or jesse jackson. those 2 take the situations they involve themselves in and turn it into nothing, but further negativity making the problem worse. I saw today something very respectable from a very influential person in the black community, tyler perry. we could argue all day about whether or not the kids who were invited to the swimming camp were being persecuted, but it is worth noting that something strange and quite ignorant happened that day. what's perry do? he's taking the whole group to disney world at his expense.
pretty much, I brought up that fact as something that can alter the data further. its a kind of anomally. I feel though that unfairly justifying the "evil black man" is ridiculously racist and thats what I'm trying to get across to people like twotap who has a limited interaction with people of color, as I can tell. he's made some very subject statements that without merit show that he has this view of people of color as being every single stereotype. he missed my call that by feeling this way and speaking what he thinks is merely the truth has him playing into a stereotype he brought up earlier; being a redneck. whether he is or not, I don't know for sure, but he makes statements that, left up to anyone who knows even one black family, appears to be sopping in racial prejudice.
what I constantly come back to when looking at racism is that one thing generally helps it happen; income. poor people hate certain races because they feel they take their jobs and are generally given an unfair advantage over whites in the job market. the problem with this is how rich white people view race. sure, they may get hired for a good part because of race, but they also tend to get paid less than if they were white. those are some more numbers worth looking up. so the "man?" he exists, just not as much anymore, as does the profiled hiring of minorities to satisfy the naacp, but there is a cost paid by the minority hired either way. in other words, racism makes no sense when the person generally pushing down the poor is the rich and the rich could benefit more without profiling by having qualified workers regardless of race. very curious what you think about that, domet. |
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I'm not a polarized. deal with it. |
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Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:13 pm |
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BAH836
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
Domet schreef:
quote:
mutt of flint schreef:
I'm curious what you think about the fact that more blacks are wrongfully arrested than whites. Or is that a myth?
There is some "myth" though - I believe (and this is from memory, I will double check) that Black people are still arrested for actually committing crimes. It isn't a matter of unfairly arresting them in some cases - they still may have committed the crime.
This |
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Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:21 pm |
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mutt of flint
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
Adam schreef:
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mutt of flint schreef:
In other words, twotap,adam, get rid of blacks, get rid of crime? That's not racist? The naacp does state a message of personal empowermeant, pride, and responsibility. Like I said, if obama were dropping "yo yo yo's" he wouldn't have gotten elected. I reccommend watching crash. It will blow your mind. I also reccommend actually reading the mans statment. He answers your questions before you state them
If you think it's racist to state the fact that black people have a higher crime rate that's your perogative. I think what's racist is to sit back and ignore the problem while black people shoot each other up. Black on black murders barely even makes the headlines in Flint unless it's a pastor or child that dies. I don't think people like you who try and ignore the stats are any help to the problem while another young black male gets gunned down every week or every other week in places like the north end of Flint.
I'm late in getting to this, but I do have this to say. your right, but neither is pointing out most black people as being subject to turning criminal. I ask for responsibility and am not giving them an excuse, but, like I've stated before, a lot of you on here see everything as black and white, without noting the many shades of gray. its almost like your saying lock em up and we get rid of crime. I used to work for a 711 in flint. I was just as likely to get robbed from both white and black. I also had it happen in that very same way. I was also just as likely to get threatened by both. and to bring it all full circle, I was also even more likely to have plenty of customers come back and get along with me of any race. in some cases, I was treated nicer by black folks than white. I haven't been shot, beaten, stabbed, had my own money stolen, or anything of those sort. I have seen a number of situations, but none had a specific racial predictor to it. |
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I'm not a polarized. deal with it. |
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Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:29 pm |
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Adam
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
Domet schreef:
Well, Adam, if you want to get personal, let's get personal.
You are welcome to remain ignorant, that's certainly not my problem. What is my problem is when ignorance, such as this, escapes into the world and shapes the views people have about "race." From your sentiments here, it is clear that while you may have humanist views towards saving lives (something I can respect) it is based in your opinion that Black people are just more violent than White people, which is racist and completely unfounded.
Wording is extremely important, not because I'm a peacenik douche bag who thinks everybody should just get along and runs a grammar police hotline 24/7. I think that people like you aren't only bad for the debate but are useless in general, because while people like me are looking at the actual numbers and tracing the root causes of problems, people like you just keep pointing at black people and yelling, "Look, it's just black people - being Black is the root cause of their crime." People like me want to know why there is a higher crime rate amongst minority groups, and we want to view all the possible interactions that cause them. Poverty is a major issue as well as is unemployment, lower income, the list goes on. Pegging it just on black people limits your options and tells us all that you think that Black people are just a nasty problem in their own right.
As I said earlier, I've been looking at crime data and census data going back to 1971 regarding Flint specifically. It's interesting as I run numbers looking at how poverty rates, unemployment rates increase drastically in the city from 1984-1995 - income levels go down, drop out rates increased - this is the exact same time that our crime rates were the highest. When poverty started to go down in the mid-90s, so did crime rates. This is also after the time that "white flight" was happening in Flint - had there been more White people here, suffering the same problems, it would have worked the same magic on them.
When it comes right down to it, your misuse of numbers and your ignorant view of crime being a "Black problem" is disgusting and short sighted. The only propoganda being spouted is your own because, despite being introduced to facts, logical arguments and an attempt to convince you that there is more going on here than just Black people shooting each other, you have chosen to continue spouting your ignorance. While you are welcome to do that, it doesn't change the fact that when it comes right down to it, people like you are holding the rest of us back because your views are so based in the same biased lunacy that told us Black people are an inferior race.
So there it is, Adam my friend. Your ignorant views are self-inflicted wounds that not only damage you, but the entire process. Were the world clear of people with your views, or at least clear of people who are not willing to learn from the facts when presented with them, we would be in a much better place. While I respect your right to say whatever you please, I certainly don't respect you or your views and, in many ways, I hope that your racist perspective doesn't win out in the future because it will only serve to set us back 30 years rather than move us forward towards a conclusion.
You see Adam, and maybe you just don't "get it," but when you say "black people have a higher murder rate and that's all that is important," you are making a spurious argument. I don't know why I have to keep telling you this. You are making an argument that isn't based on science, it isn't based on logic, and it certainly isn't based on evidence. You are using statistical numbers to tell people that Black people are more violent and then asking, "What is wrong with Black people, amiright guys?" And that's what I keep trying to tell you. It has nothing to do with Kumbaya or wanting everybody to just get along. I've been studying and looking at social data for years - amongst anybody I know personally, I am extremely jaded. I see the deaths, the murders, the poverty, the low income everytime I look at stats regarding this issue and I will tell you that I think we're on a bad course. When it comes right down to it, it's not a problem with being Black - it is a problem with being poor, marginalized and in a place where the social norms are radically different than they are anywhere else. It is also a problem with ignorant folks like yourself who are willing to go into the world and say, "Look at this, Black people are soooo violent. Gosh."
Who's the one who didn't understand what a crime rate was?
Black people are dying at a disproportionate rate from being murdered. Is that wording ok for you? Before you can get to the root cause of a problem you need to identify the problem. The problem is black people are dying at a disproportionate rate. Comprende? Before we can get to causal factors it helps to identify a problem.
If you think there's not a reason for concernt with the high numbers of black people getting gunned down than that's your perogative.
Maybe you should start reading the obituaries. Or is that beyond you? I'm not sure what the obituaries read in the 60's or 70's but there sure are a lot of young black males getting gunned down in the north end of Flint here in 2009.
I'm not making an arugument I'm stating a fact. If you are a black male in America you are far more likelier to get gunned down than if you are a young white male.
With politicians similar to yourself running things it's no wonder our state police are focused on areas like I-75 in Oakland county fighting speeders and seat belt violators instead of the north end of Flint where young black males are getting gunned down.
Since you wanna call me a racist why don't you call me a sexist against males as well just to be fair? If you look at the state males are the main killers. |
_________________
Adam
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Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:15 pm |
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Domet
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
Adam schreef:
Who's the one who didn't understand what a crime rate was?
I have no idea what you are talking about here. If you are talking about our back and forth earlier, it was because you so poorly word your sentences that it was difficult for me to tell if you were understanding what I was trying to tell you. Once I realized we were on the same page, I moved on.
quote:
Adam schreef:
If you think there's not a reason for concern with the high numbers of black people getting gunned down than that's your perogative.
There is something you're not getting, and I just don't understand why. I have an immense problem with people getting gunned down in general. How am I not coming through clearly on that regard? People dying due to violent crime should be stopped. We agree on that point, I fail to see why you even mentioned this.
quote:
Adam schreef:
Maybe you should start reading the obituaries. Or is that beyond you? I'm not sure what the obituaries read in the 60's or 70's but there sure are a lot of young black males getting gunned down in the north end of Flint here in 2009.
What are you talking about? I mean, do you think about what you're typing before you actually type it? Why on earth would I need to read the obits? I have stats in front of me that tell me the entire, sad story. And what, was the "60's or 70's" an example of you trying to be clever? It's like you were trying to insult something legitimate and worthwhile I am involved in, but ended up making yourself look the fool XD.
quote:
Adam schreef:
With politicians similar to yourself running things it's no wonder our state police are focused on areas like I-75 in Oakland county fighting speeders and seat belt violators instead of the north end of Flint where young black males are getting gunned down.
I don't get it - are you calling me a politician? Or are you saying I am like a politician? Or that there are politicians out there like me? I can't even tell if I'm being insulted. Regardless of that matter, however, would you rather that State troopers all come into Flint? I mean, they work all over the state, that's one of the reasons they are there. I can't even tell if you're trying to make a plan here or if it's part of what I think was your failed insult. Just the same, I think your suggestion of moving the state police all into Flint is completely without merit and utterly ludicrous. There are other areas in Michigan where people are being killed, and I certainly don't think that Flint deserves all the attention...
quote:
Adam schreef:
Since you wanna call me a racist why don't you call me a sexist against males as well just to be fair? If you look at the state males are the main killers.
I don't know if you realize this, but you pretty much just made the point I've been arguing this entire time - I mean, you have to understand how funny that is. Males commit the majority of crimes - must be a problem with men! You see the same problem exists with making the same statement about Black populations - you are, without any other evidence, attributing cause to a factor that is obviously influenced by other things. Apart from the fact that you've helped me prove my point, I think you're trying to attack me here too, but it's failing as much as it did in the rest of the post.
quote:
Adam schreef:
I'm not making an argument I'm stating a fact. If you are a black male in America you are far more likelier to get gunned down than if you are a young white male.
You are stating a statistical fact, which kind of means by default you are making an argument. Just the same, your "fact" isn't really true - for instance, if you are a Black man from Flushing, born and raised, you are probably as likely to get shot as any white person living in the area. See, this is what I'm pointing out when I am saying you don't know jack about stats - I think that what you are trying to say is, "Being Black in the US means that there is a higher chance you live in an Urban environment, which in turn means you have a higher chance of encountering violent crime." You see what I did there, Adam, I said what you are trying to say without sounding like a racist. What makes you sound like a racist is that you don't add qualifies. You say these insane things like, "If you are a black male in America you are far more likely to get gunned down," to which I read it and go, "What?"
And finally:
quote:
Adam schreef:
Before you can get to the root cause of a problem you need to identify the problem.
Now see, Adam.. this is such a confusing thing for you to say, because you are again kind of making my point. We already know what the problem is. Never once have I said that there isn't crime among the Black population. In fact I've even point out that they have disproportionate numbers - what I am telling you, and have been telling you this entire time, is that we know that fact and it's time to start looking at why that fact exists. See, you for some reason are incapable of getting past that. "Politicians" (as you for some reason put it) like me are really quite tired of people like you running around telling us things that we are already aware of. What I am telling you, and in fact have been telling you, is that we are working beyond that. Meanwhile, as I keep telling you this, you continue telling us that there is more crime among black populations. What I am telling you now is that we know what you are talking about, everybody knows what you are talking about. The fact that you keep mentioning it while leaving out the factors that help create the criminal element is what makes it seem so racist.
I don't know what else to say to you.. I mean I keep repeating myself trying to get this point across to you, but you just seem to keep ignoring it. While I apologize if my attitude seems to hold you in such contempt, it's difficult for me to feel otherwise when I've been banging my head against the immense wall that is Adam. Get it through your head already! |
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Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:04 pm |
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