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Marko Rollo
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Interesting
video describing
how Holland cut the number of abortions by 80% in one generation through sex education policies. Today, we have over 22 abortions per 1,000 pregnancies in the U.S. - they are down to about 6 per 1,000.
Questions:
Is the religious right willing to join with the left in implementing a government policy of sex ed that works?
Is their any proof abstinence education works?
If abortion is made illegal, are we as a society willing to accept the consequences of hundreds or thousands of women dying each year from illegal abortions?
Is the left willing to give up support for late-term abortions in exchange for a more conservative policy that the majority of Americans will support?
Is the right willing to give up opposition to abortion in the case of rape/incest/mother's life in exchange for a more liberal policy that the majority of Americans will support?
My goal here is not to beat each other up, but to come up with a rational policy that we could all support. The assumption is that neither side will be happy about the answer, but it would be a compromise that we could all agree reduces abortion to a minimal level, while balancing the rights of the woman and the child.
If your comment is "Abortion is murder-FU" or "It's my body & you're a facist," then we've already heard those arguments before, and let's accept we don't need to read them again.
Thoughts? |
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Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:06 pm |
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strattonsigns
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Wow...how about taking responsibility for your actions?
maybe that's just asking too much?
We aren't sophisticated enough to prevent pregnancy...it 1636 AD for heavens sake. |
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Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:59 pm |
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Kevin McKague
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| What you suggest sounds perfectly reasonable. It will never fly here, not at this board anyways. The cons here are far more interested in placing blame and burning sinners at the stake than discussing potential solutions. |
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Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:10 pm |
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kryskattan
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Last edited by kryskattan on Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:20 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:59 pm |
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andi03
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
Kevin McKague schreef:
What you suggest sounds perfectly reasonable. It will never fly here, not at this board anyways. The cons here are far more interested in placing blame and burning sinners at the stake than discussing potential solutions.
Shhhhh....you don't mention sinners and stake in the same sentence, it may give people some ideas.... |
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Build a bridge and get over it! |
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Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:04 pm |
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andi03
F L I N T O I D
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| You realize Marko, that your posting requires a "thesis type" of response from people...<evil grin> |
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Build a bridge and get over it! |
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Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:06 pm |
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twotap
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
The cons here are far more interested in placing blame and burning sinners at the stake than discussing potential solutions.
Ya mean like Palins 17 year old daughter. You dems are hilarious but this going after Palins daughter just shows how much panic is rampant in the dem party. I guarantee you it will come back to bite Obama in the ass. |
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Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:26 pm |
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kryskattan
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Last edited by kryskattan on Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:17 pm |
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Marko Rollo
F L I N T O I D
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I blew off the evening studying how several European countries handled abortion, why their abortion rates are lower, etc. and took a shot at a first draft of something we might all agree on. I learned they don't have the same conservative and liberal positions we do. For example, a "liberal" position is anti-abortion and anti-death penalty, whereas some conservatives don't have a problem with abortion if it limits the number of "undesirables." Also, they start from the moral position that killing is wrong because it violates your rights as a Citizen - without bringing God into it. Anyway, to get this discussion started, here's a draft plan with lots of help from the Germans and the Dutch:
quote:
1. Abortion is the Act of Killing.
The life that is developing in the womb of the mother is an independent legal being and a Citizen that enjoys the protection of the constitution.
2. The Child’s Rights are Equal to the Mothers.
The protection of life of the child takes precedence over the right of the mother to self-determination.
3. The State’s Duty to the Child.
The State's duty to protect forbids not only direct state attacks against life developing itself, but also requires the state to protect and foster this life by guaranteeing the basic rights of access to food, clothing, shelter, education and health care for every child.
4. The State’s Duty to the Citizens.
It is the State’s duty to insure that every Citizen is informed of the legal, ethical, and moral consequences of abortion, as well as all legal methods of preventing abortion, via the public school system. Physician-prescribed contraception shall be available at no cost to any Citizen.
5. Consequences of Abortion.
The legislature reserves the right to choose the consequences for a termination of pregnancy through measures other than the threat of punishment.
6. Punishment for Abortion.
Anyone who terminates a pregnancy after the 13th day following conception shall be punished by incarceration or a fine. The punishment shall be five years if the actor acts against the will of the pregnant woman, or, wantonly causes the danger of death or serious impairment of health to the pregnant woman. If the pregnant woman commits the act, the punishment is incarceration or a fine.
7. Abortion after Instruction and Counseling.
Before the termination of a pregnancy, the pregnant woman must first present herself to a physician or to a counseling center where she will be instructed about the ethical, spiritual, and moral decision to kill a child, the public and private assistance available for pregnant women, mothers and children, especially such assistance which facilitates the continuation of the pregnancy, or adoption, and, after counseling and a 72 hour waiting period but not more than 12 weeks after conception, decides that she still wants to terminate the pregnancy, neither the woman upon whom the operation is performed or the physician will be subject to punishment.
8. Abortion to Save the Life of the Mother.
A termination of pregnancy performed by a physician with the consent of the pregnant woman is not punishable if, according to the judgment of medical science the termination of pregnancy is indicated in order to avert danger to her life or a serious impairment to her health.
9. Abortion if the Child is Injured in Vitro.
A termination of pregnancy performed by a physician with the consent of the pregnant woman is not punishable if, according to the judgment of medical science the child will suffer from impaired health which cannot be remedied on account of an hereditary disposition, or due to prenatal injury so serious that a continuation of the pregnancy cannot be reasonably expected, and not more than 22 weeks have elapsed since conception.
Now I'm sure the first thing you'll notice (if you read this far) is that in #1. abortion is killing, yet in #7-9 it is legal. There are 3 reasons for this logic:
1. Killing is different from murder. We allow state-sanctioned killing every day, and it only becomes murder depending on specific circumstances. #8 is analogous to dividing Siamese twins with a single heart. The stronger one dies - it is sad - but it isn't considered murder.
2. The law makes it very clear (#7) when you're counseling the mother that she is killing a child, not "aborting a fetus" and that their are other alternatives available.
3. The law admits (#5) that as a society we're not willing to put thousands of physicians and mothers into prison...it would tear our country apart.
Thoughts? Better or worse than we have now? Keep in mind other countries who have something similar have 70-80% less abortions...are we willing to compromise to achieve that goal? |
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Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:13 pm |
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andi03
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Marko: Useless ramblings pertaining to the information that you provided.
*****1. Abortion is the Act of Killing. The life that is developing in the womb of the mother is an independent legal being and a Citizen that enjoys the protection of the constitution.******
I guess it's just as crazy as corporations having "person" status...oy. In all seriousness, how can something be an "independent legal" being when the fetus feeds and grows off of the mother.
****2. The Child’s Rights are Equal to the Mothers. The protection of life of the child takes precedence over the right of the mother to self-determination.***
Um, no. (My opinion)
****3. The State’s Duty to the Child. The State's duty to protect forbids not only direct state attacks against life developing itself, but also requires the state to protect and foster this life by guaranteeing the basic rights of access to food, clothing, shelter, education and health care for every child.****
So the fetus is there just for a womb with a view? <lame humor> Notice the phrase...."state". This alludes to the fact that the mother is only a vessel without her own needs, her own right to live should it be that perilous to continue a pregnancy.
*****4. The State’s Duty to the Citizens. It is the State’s duty to insure that every Citizen is informed of the legal, ethical, and moral consequences of abortion, as well as all legal methods of preventing abortion, via the public school system. Physician-prescribed contraception shall be available at no cost to any Citizen.******
Two points: You cannot legislate knowledge, it has to be lived or experienced. Point number 2: Kudos.
****5. Consequences of Abortion. The legislature reserves the right to choose the consequences for a termination of pregnancy through measures other than the threat of punishment.****
I failed law classes....does this mean that Jill down the street gets different treatment that Janet for the same procedure?
*****6. Punishment for Abortion. Anyone who terminates a pregnancy after the 13th day following conception shall be punished by incarceration or a fine. The punishment shall be five years if the actor acts against the will of the pregnant woman, or, wantonly causes the danger of death or serious impairment of health to the pregnant woman. If the pregnant woman commits the act, the punishment is incarceration or a fine.******
Like the guilt wouldn't be enough for some women? What about men that ejaculate and spill their seed due to the fact that there is possible life being wasted? I am gonna donate an egg now...
*****7. Abortion after Instruction and Counseling. Before the termination of a pregnancy, the pregnant woman must first present herself to a physician or to a counseling center where she will be instructed about the ethical, spiritual, and moral decision to kill a child, the public and private assistance available for pregnant women, mothers and children, especially such assistance which facilitates the continuation of the pregnancy, or adoption, and, after counseling and a 72 hour waiting period but not more than 12 weeks after conception, decides that she still wants to terminate the pregnancy, neither the woman upon whom the operation is performed or the physician will be subject to punishment.*******
So even after all of the "information" thrown at the mother and the waiting period, if people are going to do something, they are going to do it.
*****8. Abortion to Save the Life of the Mother. A termination of pregnancy performed by a physician with the consent of the pregnant woman is not punishable if, according to the judgment of medical science the termination of pregnancy is indicated in order to avert danger to her life or a serious impairment to her health. ******
Yippers.
******9. Abortion if the Child is Injured in Vitro. A termination of pregnancy performed by a physician with the consent of the pregnant woman is not punishable if, according to the judgment of medical science the child will suffer from impaired health which cannot be remedied on account of an hereditary disposition, or due to prenatal injury so serious that a continuation of the pregnancy cannot be reasonably expected, and not more than 22 weeks have elapsed since conception.*******
Oy. |
_________________
Build a bridge and get over it! |
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Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:56 pm |
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twotap
F L I N T O I D
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| I dunno their seems to be some reasonable restrictions and actually penalty's for not adhering to them. The abortion anytime all the time libs sure aint gonna buy into that especially some of those past and present forum members. |
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Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:21 pm |
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