how on earth did this turn into a "gay" discussion? the thread was concerning obama not being qualified to run for president by his lack of flip floping and lack of experience.
i think we may have some closet straight haters on this board. not?
public d, if obama was correct on iraq then why is he changing his position on pulling out as soon as he gets into office? why is he trying to move to the center from the left ozone? was slick willie wrong when he stated early into his administration that iraq and sodomy insane needed to be delt with? now one last thing, wonder what one would use 500 lbs of yellow cake for? a birthday party??
remember i am not a republican, i am an independent with conservative libertarian views.
david,
san diego
p.s and a pretty nice guy over all.
Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:30 pm
Public D F L I N T O I D
Don't misunderstand me. I recognize his recent, more centrist maneuvers, and do not understand or appreciate them. Not just for the real implications of insufficient, softball centrist polices, but also because they suggest some admission on his (or his staffers') part that those who would stand against bold progress need to be acknowledged, and even appeased. They need to be told, like (can't believe I'm writing this) Bush did in so many words when he told 90% of America that he was going to protect the interests of the rich and powerful, and that the rest of us would just have to learn to 'deal with it.'
The 'change' is the thing. Not getting as many people as possible into a phone booth and then trying to come up with 'the change.' Not the same thing. Not going to work.
You don't UNDERSTAND them? I find that hard to believe given your extreme intelligence. I think you understand them completely.
1. He HAD to pretend to move to the center on Gun Control.
2. He had to move to the center on FISA...it's one thing for a junior Senator from Illinois to make a claim for no wiretapping, it a whole different issue when you are Commander and Chief.
3. He flat out lied when he claimed he would immediately withdraw all of our troops from Iraq. No one would be stupid enough (except the sheep) to think we could do that in reality, to do so would start Armageddon in the Middle East.
Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:46 pm
Public D F L I N T O I D
I've said before that I think the the gun feud is as silly as the war on drugs, or prohibition. I haven't followed the FISA stuff, or his stance(s) on it, enough to know if it's a make or break issue – though I don't think it will be for me, or any other voter for that matter. Iraq, however, is a different story. We're getting out. And no amount of hellfire and brimstone BS from the Rapture welcome wagon will change that. Nor will any 1984 "Peace through War" logic. War is war. Invasion is invasion. War profiteering is war profiteering. And the sheep will inherit the earth.
Shall we finish the job in Vietnam while we're at it? Or would that unleash Nirvana in East Asia?
We need to stop overestimating the weight of the weight we throw around, and just chill out. Maybe, just maybe, the earth will still rotate after the USA stops trying to spin it like a toy top. Honestly, what arrogance.
Scary how the reasons for remaining in Iraq are the exact same reasons voiced by those who opposed it from the beginning. WE destabilized the region. WE don't have a leg (or lie) to stand on when comes to 'stabilizing' shit. We've been at this for nearly 6 years! Who are we fighting? Are we winning? How do you know? What does 'stable' look like? What do our 'enemies' want? How can we work towards 'stable' if we don't know the terms under which they would 'surrender?' Are the lights on yet? I bet they are at Shell's Iraqi headquarters.
While you fall for the 'fear of Armageddon' rationale for wearing out our welcome (and troops, and treasury, and credibility, and domestic to-do list) waging 'democracy' in Iraq, a more honest reason for remaining is to ensure we have Iraqi OIL firmly under our control. Scary how the reasons for remaining in Iraq are the exact same reasons for invading it in the first place. Endless bullshit. Endless war.
For christ's sake, McCain slipped and admitted that OIL was our only motivation for invasion. He knew it. He didn't mind. This patriot, this man of 'honor' who knows the atrocities of war firsthand didn't say boo against such a grotesque, selfish, psychotic use of American soldiers. A man of 'honor' would have made it his personal mission to end this bogus war and all future illegitimate uses of brave American men and women's lives – or quit his party in utter disgust. He hasn't. He won't. Even though he's admitted the real reasons behind the deaths of 4,000+ of his brothers and sisters and 100,000 (or more) innocent Iraqis. Integrity. What nerve. Almost beyond Bush's intolerable gall. Nothing worse than fake dignity, fake honor. Hoorah!
The best opportunity for lasting peace in the middle east is to bring all parties (yes, including Iran and Syria) together around the issue of Iraq's (and, eek, Palestine's) future role in a peaceful mid east. Which candidate do you think can do that?
And will the Judea-Christian wackos use such a peaceful outcome as proof that Obama is, in fact, the anti-christ?
We should make our own country stable (open borders, poverty, job losses, debt etc) before worrying about Iraq. Vietnam was "not stable" when we left and they turned out fine.
Your right about us not getting out of Iraq anytime soon. Our puppet Iraqi government seems to be trying to get us out but they'll probably fail at that.
Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:13 pm
david F L I N T O I D
quote:Public D schreef:
. WE destabilized the region. /
public d, you are showing a lack of knowledge of the geopolitics in the region. have you been to the middle east? the area has been distabilized for years and goes back well before the yom kipper war and from my first hand knowledge to 1948.
that said, if memory serves me we went into iraq to enforce the last of a long list of U.N. resolutions telling sodomy insane to give up his weapons of mass distruction.. now before you say there were none i will ask again. what was the plan for 500 lbs of yellow cake? a birthday party?
we are engaged with iran now (by proxy) and i feel that prior to november the face of the whole middle east will change, for the better i hope. and yes, i have been to the middle east and no i am not former navy. am i educated? to some degree but one does not learn all of life's lessons in the class room.
david,
socal
Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:27 pm
david F L I N T O I D
[quote="Adam Vietnam was "not stable" when we left and they turned out fine. .[/quote}
adam, we did our retrograde from vietnam during 1975, as a result 3 million people in the region died. yes, that country is at peace now but fought on again off again border wars with china.
strange how that country is now moving toward capitalism don't cha think?
david
Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:39 pm
strattonsigns F L I N T O I D
You seem to be misunderstanding me. I do not or have not agreed with the fact that we went to war in the first place. i think that we could have added a whole lot more diplomatic pressure on Saddam to abide by the UN resolutions he thumbed his nose at. Bush is a cowboy, no doubt about it.
The fact of the matter is, we are at war. An overwhelming majority of Congress approved the resolution for us to go to war,both Democrat and Republican. It would be very irresponsible for us to leave before the new regime has some semblence of control. If the region fell into a widespread conflict after we abandoned them, we would be toast in the eyes of the world. No war is easy. Our military is completely voluntary. A large majority of troops that have actually served in Iraq believe we are making progress and should stay the course until we are done.
Did we do it for oil? I doubt it. The Iraqi oil was making it to world markets even with the sanctions. It doesn't matter where the oil comes from in a supply and demand economy, only that it gets sold. I truly think Bush was quick to the trigger because he wanted to leave a legacy and "fix" what his Dad left undone. If Congress really wanted us not to be there they could have made it happen. It's not like Saddam didn't have a history of genocide and invading our allies, the history is well documented.
I think he did have a secret WMD program, we simply gave him too much time to hide before the invasion. The yellow cake mix wasn't for dessert. Regardless, Obama is NOT who we need making our foreign policy, he has NO experience.
Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:58 pm
david F L I N T O I D
quote:strattonsigns schreef:
I think he did have a secret WMD program, we simply gave him too much time to hide before the invasion. The yellow cake mix wasn't for dessert. Regardless, Obama is NOT who we need making our foreign policy, he has NO experience.
dam, no cake. Hmmmmmm how about ice cream. HELL YEAH he had WMD he gassed his own people the kurds. how many died, don't recall but think it was close to 25k. yeah my left leaning friends i know, we gave him the gas but he was fighting a 10 year war with his neighbors and needed some help.
no way in hell can we pull out of iraq until the country is up and running. and if you think different you never were punched out on the school yard play ground. give a bully what he wants and i promise you he will be back for seconds.
david
the left coast
Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:11 pm
Adam Ford F L I N T O I D
quote:david schreef:
[quote="Adam Vietnam was "not stable" when we left and they turned out fine. .[/quote}
adam, we did our retrograde from vietnam during 1975, as a result 3 million people in the region died. yes, that country is at peace now but fought on again off again border wars with china.
strange how that country is now moving toward capitalism don't cha think?
no way in hell can we pull out of iraq until the country is up and running. and if you think different you never were punched out on the school yard play ground. give a bully what he wants and i promise you he will be back for seconds.
So what should we do overthrow the new government we installed that wants to put us on a timetable to make sure we eventually leave their country? I think we should worry about getting our own country up and running and let the Iraqis run their own messed up country.
Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:47 am
Adam Ford F L I N T O I D
quote:strattonsigns schreef:
The fact of the matter is, we are at war. An overwhelming majority of Congress approved the resolution for us to go to war,both Democrat and Republican. It would be very irresponsible for us to leave before the new regime has some semblence of control. If the region fell into a widespread conflict after we abandoned them, we would be toast in the eyes of the world. No war is easy. Our military is completely voluntary. A large majority of troops that have actually served in Iraq believe we are making progress and should stay the course until we are done.
Did we do it for oil? I doubt it. The Iraqi oil was making it to world markets even with the sanctions. It doesn't matter where the oil comes from in a supply and demand economy, only that it gets sold. I truly think Bush was quick to the trigger because he wanted to leave a legacy and "fix" what his Dad left undone. If Congress really wanted us not to be there they could have made it happen. It's not like Saddam didn't have a history of genocide and invading our allies, the history is well documented.
I think he did have a secret WMD program, we simply gave him too much time to hide before the invasion. The yellow cake mix wasn't for dessert. Regardless, Obama is NOT who we need making our foreign policy, he has NO experience.
So because some of our idiotic leaders screwed up we should rely on those same idiotic leaders that screwed up to fix things? That's a recipe for disaster. Staying may help motivate them to unite against us.
public d, you are showing a lack of knowledge of the geopolitics in the region. have you been to the middle east? the area has been distabilized for years and goes back well before the yom kipper war and from my first hand knowledge to 1948.
Yes. I've been to the middle east. I helped Cyrus the Great conquer Babylon in 539 BC; fought in Persia for Rome under Trajan in 93 a.d.; in the third crusade with Richard the Lionheart, 1190 a.d.; backed the Young Turks of the Ottoman Empire in their revolt against Abdul Hamid II in 1908; and helped quell the Jaffa riots against the British control of 'the Holy Land' in 1921.
You are right. We are merely the latest and greatest 'destabilizers.' All the more reason to think that we'll be the ones to make it work out all cozy like this time. Deadly arrogance meets deadly stupidity.
quote:david schreef:
now before you say there were none i will ask again. what was the plan for 500 lbs of yellow cake? a birthday party?
According to UN documents, that uranium was purchased between 1980 and 1982 from Portugal and Niger. What was going on in Iraq then? They were being supported by the U.S. in the Iraqi invasion of Iran, seeking to exploit and thwart Iran's recent revolutionary turmoil (a.k.a. blowback from the CIA-orchestrated coupe that ousted the democratically elected Prime Minister, Mohammed Mosaddeq, for nationalizing Iran's Oil Industry. Tisk. Tisk.). The UN inspectors were aware of the yellowcake's existence and location at all times. When we invaded in 2003, the guards at the location where it was being stored left their post – meaning that it was our invasion that put its safe-keeping at risk. Likely the reason Cheney & Co. did not throw a 'birthday party' when it was finally re-secured. Feel better?
quote:david schreef:
and yes, i have been to the middle east and no i am not former navy. am i educated? to some degree but one does not learn all of life's lessons in the class room.
Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and McCain have all been to the middle east too. McCain and Rumsfeld were both in the Navy. All were 'educated.' All assume a 'school of hard knocks' posture. What's your point?
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