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twotap
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Last edited by twotap on Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:53 pm |
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00SL2
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quote:
Tegan schreef:
I'm not saying that all problems stem from certain people's laziness. There are those out there who are truly needy, but IF you are too lazy to look for a job, then you are PROBABLY too lazy to work. *** Don't ask me how you fix it. Maybe taking away welfare for SOME people will motivate them to work harder to keep the jobs they get.
I like your idea about taking away welfare for "some" people -- those who show no motivation to get to work to the job handed them on a silver platter, yet expect all the handouts from relatives and agencies to sustain them. Three kids(boys) and one on the way, never married, have nothing, won't stick to a program to get their high school diploma. There's always somebody who will get suckered by their sob story. It's like enabling an alcoholic. Keep providing for them, they keep on being lazy because they don't know what it's like to
really
be without. But get this--they know the 4th child they're expecting is also a boy, so they're gonna try again because they want a girl. What is it they do to animals--spay and neuter? There needs to be a law, no more after a certain number if you're on welfare and won't work. Should happen in this case. Don't get me wrong. I have sympathy for working poor people who need assistance, but I have none for lazy a$$ poor people who leech from our tax dollars--they have no business adding to the burden by being "plentiful and multiplying." |
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Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:13 pm |
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00SL2
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quote:
twotap schreef:
Their are no excuse's for criminal behavior at least none that work with most right thinking judges.
True, but some of the dumb criminal stories in one of the Flint Journal columns I read from time to time are hysterical. |
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Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:16 pm |
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last time here
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boy ted. anyone can pull a few famous names. that means nothing. you still wish to compare others to yourself. you consistantly change the discussion to support your opinion. it's plain and simple. you can quote all the stats, numbers and trends you want but unemployment DOES contribute to SOME decisions to become or remain criminals. this ain't about welfare (i don't know HOW that became part of this). again, as
offered previously, i'd be happy to introduce you and allow them to tell
you their story. ....by the way, ken hamblin? please.........
you game ??   if not,
your just pissin' in the wind.
Last edited by last time here on Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:49 pm |
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00SL2
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quote:
last time here schreef:
this ain't about welfare (i don't know HOW that became part of this).
Crime is not limited to one element. There are many types of crime, including welfare fraud. Those who are caught get prosecuted. Some on welfare, work under the table, some of those deal drugs. Ever look at the amount of gold jewelry some "poor" people wear, including those who may be on welfare, and wonder how'd they get the money to buy that? |
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Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:08 pm |
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last time here
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honestly double OH, if you really want to know. stop one and ask them "where did you get the money to buy that gold"? please let me know what they tell you. i'm sure some young man or lady would be more than happy to inform you. be sure to have them give you proof they are
on assisstance first so you don't interrogate the wrong people. please!!!
let me know! |
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Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:28 am |
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Opinionated
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so this thread is saying poor people are more likely to commit crimes than people who aren't? that's what i'm getting from the posts i've been reading. well, that's a no-brianer, but i don't agree with the reasoning.
what are you considering "poor"? what kind of crimes are they committing? most importantly, [b]why [/b]are they committing these crimes?
i'll bet you these "poor" people aren't committing crimes that are life-essential. they're not committing crimes to better themselves. These "poor" people aren't stealing food to feed their families or robbing places to get money to pay their rent. they're not holding up stores to get money to pay the electric bill.
so before you all debate this death, ask yourself "why?". why are these poor people more likely, which i don't disagree with, to commit crimes? |
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Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:53 am |
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Demeralda
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Once more, and the last time.
The POVERTY ITSELF is not the reason; it does contribute in some circumstances.
I was only making one point, which is that this is a complex model and you can't say that poverty and unemployment have NOTHING TO DO WITH IT! As I tried to demonstrate in my Robert Taylor homes example, look at all the other things that happen concurrently -- no retail establishments, no community investment, no hope, the worst schools because they're so dangerous, a culture of CRIME that is the direct result of a CULTURE OF POVERTY. I don't mean you're just poor, I mean you are surrounded by all the worst of everything. And who are the successes they know of? I promise you they haven't heard of Richard Wright, but every one of them knows who P Diddy is.
OOSL2 has it right. If I went bankrupt and lost everything I had, at the very least I have a sister who could let me leech off her for a while, and a mom and dad. Not to mention cousins, aunts, etc. And I've had a good upbringing, but more importantly, you learn first what you see, and I saw a hard working mother and father who followed the rules and taught us this ethic. If young children in these places grow up seeing guns, drugs and hos, well guess what? That's going to be the only tactic they know for survival. And guess what else? All their brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts & uncles are in exactly the same boat! There's no relief, there's no one who has had it differently.
Flint is much the same way. We are very segregated. In fact, I believe I read recently that Genesee County is the most segregated county in the state of Michigan.
So once more, I shall reiterate -- even if you don't see a direct correlation or a suggestion of causation between poverty, unemployment and crime doesn't mean it's not part of a multi-variate model!
So Ted, unless you are a really good statistician and can actually give me R-squareds, regression and a factoral and discriminant analysis, I gotta question what your naked eye examination has truly revealed. If I spend more on advertising and my sales go down, that might seem like a trend that I've observed. That doesn't make it causal though.
And by the way, the only really useful studies of poverty, crime, unemployment, education, etc. etc., should be conducted on a very small microcosm. National, state, even county numbers don't work. |
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Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:48 am |
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last time here
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and with that, i rest my case.  |
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Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:53 am |
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Ted Jankowski
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Ok, First off. You don't have to be a statistician to look at charts and graphs of demographic information and see that there is no trand that follows that line of thinking.
You mention the Public housing model. What was the reason for being in the projects? Were these highly educated people that we pushed into public housing? And because you grew up in Public housing or in poverty does that make you more suseptable to a life of crime? NO! Not at all. If it did. Then there would be a whole lot more crime based on numbers that grew up in poverty. JUST BY SHEER NUMBERS of kids growing up in poverty. THere should be HIGHER CRIME RATES if poverty was a contributing factor. There are many other factors that actually have bearing on crime. Poverty and Unemployment don't even make the list!
Level of Parental caring and disicpline plays a much higher and important role or Lack there of. Education, has more of an influence.
I've spent a lot of time talking to people. It's amazing how many ex-con's I've talked to and not one has said that growing up in poverty caused them to commit crime. They a;; made a conscience effort and seen an easier way. Mostly that the Judicial system let them get away with crime for so long they figured nothing would happen to them. They were invincable. The only time I hear that poverty or unemployment is a cause of crime is when someone is trying to make them feel beeter so they don't have to take responsibility for thier action. ie "Aw it's not your fault you robbed and stabbed that lady and she died. You grew up in the projects and that's all you knew." That's a load of crap!
However, I am still waiting for some evidence that shows Poverty and uneployment have anything to do with a high or higher crime rate. I just don't see a lot of High school and College graduates out breaking into houses and robbing little old ladies! Does it happen? Sure. But when the overwhelming majority of criminals didn't graduate high school then cry they wouldn't commit crime if someone gave them a job. I'm not buying it. They didn't prepare themselves for the real world to begin with.
Oh and you my own experiences don't play in. So what? There are different rules if you remain in poverty? That we can make excuses for people becuase they're mom or dad was a drug addict? Or was in and out of prision. There is just too overwhelming of a MAJORITY of people that came out of a life like that and did something with their lives. And didn't do the same things as the criminals around them. |
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Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:29 pm |
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last time here
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ha ha ha..the hannity & jankowski show!!!!
hey ted, why don't you address your concern on your next show?????  |
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Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:53 pm |
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twotap
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Hey Ted your wasting your breathe. The apologists will never listen to reason. Theirs an excuse for all sorts of behavior, just ask them. Mostly those evil Repubs fault of course.  |
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Fri Dec 28, 2007 8:12 am |
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Gumby
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No one is apologizing for anything.
If you break the law go to jail.
But if we ignore the reasons and do nothing to solve them history is bound to repeat itself. If you want to hide under a rock and do nothing feel free but realize better people than you are trying to solve the problem. |
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Fri Dec 28, 2007 8:39 am |
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twotap
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quote:
But if we ignore the reasons and do nothing to solve them history is bound to repeat itself. If you want to hide under a rock and do nothing feel free but realize better people than you are trying to solve the problem.
How about a quick course on how to solve the problem and what "better people" like yourself are actually doing about it. While I am hiding under that rock maybe I can learn from your crime solving expertise.
By the way along those same lines I watched a program last night about gang activity in US cities. They profiled the goings on of the gang known as MS 13. You better hope they dont ever decide to set up a chapter in Flinttown or I wont be the only one hiding under that rock. |
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Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:21 am |
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Demeralda
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Right on, Gumby.
You ****DO**** have to be a statistician to look at charts and trends and know what they mean! 100%! I work with data EVERY SINGLE DAY, and just because there are two lines on a chart moving in different directions doesn't mean I can draw a conclusion. As much as I'd like to, if I can't prove STATISTICAL SIGNIFICANCE, it means nothing. If I took my research and made a couple of charts of it, took it around to college-educated people, I promise you they would NOT understand all the nuances and implications. It doesn't mean they are stupid, it just means they haven't been trained for this sort of task.
There are people who dedicate their lives to understanding crime, poverty, and unemployment. These are people who spend 8 years (or more) of their lives learning to properly collect, analyze and report on data.
So tell me, if it's so damn easy that a lay-person can do it, why hasn't academia abandoned that line of inquiry a long time ago?
Sorry Ted, but you're not an expert on poverty in America, though I appreciate that you're trying to examine it on your own. I can't just take your word for it that the charts and data say what you think they say.
There are two software packages, SPSS and SAS, that are solely dedicated to statistical analysis. These were developed because the brain is just not good enough to calculate the impact of multiple variables simultaneously. If one could just peer at a few data trends and understand it, we wouldn't need things like regression models! And trust me, you need them!
I have in no way, nowhere in these posts made apologies for criminals. I have made only ONE POINT again and again: you cannot discount unemployment and poverty out of hand as being inconsequential to crime data.
There are tons of research/public policy sites that have the proper analysts; I would recommend checking some of those out to understand the problem more fully. I would not recommend become an amateur data sleuth. Sorry. |
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Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:03 am |
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