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last time here
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aw dude. i've lived those "trends".  |
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Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:15 pm |
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Ted Jankowski
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Lived what stats?
I've been unemployed for almost a year Lost my house, my car. Never once during that period did I ever consider stealing from someone else so I could eat, pay a bill, etc I stayed with friends and eventually came back home and lived with family until I found a job. It took two more years until I got back on my feet. But, never once robbed anyone, or stole or broke into anyones house, dealt drugs, ran a racketeering operation, told anyone that if they didn't give me a job I would steal form them.
So because I didn't have a job and was living below the poverty level. Yet for some reason I didn't become a crmiinal? Why is that? |
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Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:50 pm |
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Tegan
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I didn't read this whole forum, so stop me if I'm way off the point....
but here is what I see regarding the job situation in the area today. First of all, my dad and uncle has been looking for a decent waitress for a while.... of course, the key word is decent.
Now don't get me wrong, the money isn't wonderful, but its a job. The problem they have is that people come in and say "I really need this job, but I don't work past 8pm, and I have to have weekends off." or they do get hired, but they don't listen or want to learn how to do it well, which affects business.
Another thing is that my friends and my mom who all work for GM are constantly getting applications for new hires or for temps. We actually keep turning them down because at this point in time, my husband and I are happy with our jobs.
I'm not saying that all problems stem from certain people's laziness. There are those out there who are truly needy, but IF you are too lazy to look for a job, then you are PROBABLY too lazy to work.
But no, its not always easy to find a job. Why, Babies R Us has had the "now hiring" sign in their window for two whole years. I applied online for a job at Babies R Us every month for six months. Finally, I went INTO the store, because my dad always told me that they are more likely to hire you if you show initiative and meet them face to face.... and they told me to apply online and wait for a phone call! I'm still waiting for a phone call, and they are still "hiring." (Maybe they just didn't want to hire me, but I had had five years retail experience, a bachelor's degree, good customer service skills, never been fired, and never been in trouble with anyone)
Did you know that Flint has a program that gives employers big tax breaks and other incentives if they hire people off of welfare or people who have had trouble keeping a job? I've heard some of my friends complain that they cannot find a job in the area because employers would rather hire less qualified people off of welfare than college educated applicants. The funny thing is, or the sad thing, depending on how you look at it, is that these particular companies or stores are the ones that are constantly hiring because they have a high turn over rate.
Don't ask me how you fix it. Maybe taking away welfare for SOME people will motivate them to work harder to keep the jobs they get. I don't know. All I know is that places ARE hiring. I've seen them do it. And I've seen the people who get the jobs screw up.
The problem is that the ones who do it right.... who keep looking and who work hard at their job and who pick themselves up when they lose their job or meet with hard times... no one every hears about them because they whine the least. |
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Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:12 pm |
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twotap
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| Their are no excuse's for criminal behavior at least none that work with most right thinking judges. |
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Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:23 pm |
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Demeralda
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There's no EXCUSE, but there are REASONS.
Once more, the point is so frickin obvious. Crime is unbelievably hard to understand as a epidemiological model. There are too many factors moving at once.
You are comparing poverty and a "culture of poverty". These are very different things. Many people experience a point in their lives of TRANSITIONAL POVERTY. But still, many were raised with that lovely little protestant ethic (the not-quite-conscious notion that working hard gets you to heaven, a la Weber), particularly we white middle-class 2nd and 3rd generation of immigrants, children of people who lived through the depression. Sorry, but that's not the same as the poverty that is linked to crime.
In Chicago, for example, blacks who wanted that middle class standard of life were blocked from white neighborhoods. Even after fair housing laws, the neighborhood residents found ways to reject their applications. If you look at demographic maps of Chicago from about 1940 until 1980, you will see the continuous concentration of poor blacks into a smaller and smaller area. They built high-rise public housing for blocks and blocks with plenty of corner stores to price gouge them, and right next to the expressway (a natural fence, eh?).
My point? You've just taken all the bad behaviors, all the problems, and closed them off from opportunity, guidance, hope -- they created a ghetto which would do nothing but perpetuate itself. The only things you see are other kids skipping school; the only commerce, selling drugs; the only men... oh wait, there are no men, because none of them ever grow up without ending up in prison. The schools get the worst teachers and the worst students. And those rare, rare few who manage to escape? They sure don't go back and try and invest in that neighborhood!!
So it's not just about being poor, no. It's so much more than that.
And PS - government unemployment numbers are nearly useless, since you cease to be counted when you run out your benefits. Not a very good measure of economic success, if you ask me. |
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Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:21 pm |
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last time here
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it's because every human is not ted jankowski. 
by the way, congratulations on your climb!! 
demeralda, they just don't get it......they never will..  |
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Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:25 pm |
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Ted Jankowski
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quote:
last time here schreef:
it's because every human is not ted jankowski.
by the way, congratulations on your climb!!
demeralda, they just don't get it......they never will..
Nothing was proved there?
Ken Hamblin Born 1940 in Brooklyn, NY - Very sucessfull rasie in Poverty in the hood. NOt a crimnal.
Born in rural Mississippi to a poor unwed teenaged mother, and later raised in a Milwaukee ghetto - not a criminal!
Colin Luther Powell was born in Harlem in 1937 rasied in poverty - Not a criminal.
Snoop Dogg was born Calvin Broadus on October 20th, 1972, in Long Beach, California; his postal-worker father was named Vernell Varnado - Didn't grow up in Poverty and his parents were employed - SNOOP is a criminal
Hmm when it comes to famous people. I find more examples of people who came out of poverty and became role models in society. ANd find others who lived a middle class life and grew up to be criminals. Hmmm |
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Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:56 pm |
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twotap
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quote:
there are no men,
Well their must be some available what with the birth rates in some of those "Ghettos" they just dont stick around after making their little sperm deposit. Maybe a father that acted like a MAN and took responsiblity instead of allowing the tax payers to support and house what he helped create while hes out looking for that next easy piece of booty might make a difference. Even old race baiter Jesse Jackson has on occasion eluded to the fact that lack of fathers might be a problem.
quote:
The schools get the worst teachers and the worst students.
UhOh Deena where are you.  |
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Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:04 pm |
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Ted Jankowski
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Oprah Windry Born in rural Mississippi to a poor unwed teenaged mother, and later raised in a Milwaukee ghetto - not a criminal!
No, you guys just don't get it. There is nothing anywhere that shows even remotely a relationship between living, growing up in poverty, being unemployed and having a tendency to crimainl behavoir. Economics do not influence people to commit crime.
Hanging with the wrong crowd, lack of parental involvement, lack of education. Yes all those factor in! But, econimics of poverty and employment play no role! Whatsoever.
Show me some evidence. Too many people grow up in poverty and the projects and go on to have law abiding and productive lives. We only here about the small minority that actually commit the crimes. That cry they don't have a job. Who, when you look past that one statement you find aren't qualified clean windows at the car wash. Because they dropped out of school or have a criminal record! It's that simple! Stop making excuses for people's criminal behavoir. |
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Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:05 pm |
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Demeralda
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You find ONE or TWO anecdotal cases (provided these people really were as poor as they claim), and you extrapolate out things that just don't stand up under the scrutiny of serious academic study.
There are far more of those who fit "the rule" aka end up as criminals than your exceptions.
Now Wikipedia is not the world's greatest authority, but since I'm about to leave and I can't dig forever, I think you'll see some interesting points here.
From wikipedia:
History
The Robert Taylor Homes housing project was completed in 1962 and named for Robert Robinson Taylor, the son of the first African-American architect accredited in the United States.[citation needed] At one time, it was the largest housing project in the country,[1] and it was intended to offer decent affordable housing. It was composed of 28 high-rise buildings with 16 stories each, with a total of 4,321 apartments, mostly arranged in U-shaped clusters of three, stretching for two miles (three kilometers).[2] The Robert Taylor Homes were also home at one time to such celebrities as Mr. T, Kirby Puckett, and current Massachusetts governor Deval Patrick.
Robert Taylor Homes faced many of the same problems that doomed other high-rise housing projects in Chicago such as Cabrini-Green. These problems include narcotics, violence, and the perpetuation of poverty.
Planned for 11,000 inhabitants, the Robert Taylor Homes housed up to a peak of 27,000 people. [3] Six of the poorest US census areas with populations above three people were found there. Including children who are not of working age, at one point 95 percent of the housing development's 27,000 residents were unemployed and listed public assistance as their only income source, and 40 percent of the households were single-parent, female-headed households earning less than $5,000 per year. About 99.9 percent were African-American. The 28 drab, 16-story concrete high-rises, many blackened with the scars of arson fire, sat in a narrow two-block by 2.5-mile[4] (300 m by 3 km) stretch of slum. The city's neglect was evident in littered streets, poorly enforced building codes, and scant commercial or civic amenities.
Police intelligence sources say that elevated number of homicides was the result of gang "turf wars," as gang members and drug dealers fought over control of given Chicago neighborhoods. Its landlord, the Chicago Housing Authority (CHA), has estimated that $45,000 in drug deals took place daily. Former residents of the Robert Taylor Homes have said that the drug dealers fought for control of the buildings. In one weekend, more than 300 separate shooting incidents were reported in the vicinity of the Robert Taylor Homes.[disputed] Twenty-eight people were killed during the same weekend, with 26 of the 28 incidents believed to be gang-related.[disputed]
On June 25 1983, an infant, Vinyette Teague, was abducted from Robert Taylor Homes after her grandmother left her alone in the hallway for a few minutes to answer a phone call. An estimated 50 people were in the hallway at the time of the abduction, but police were unable to gather enough evidence to make any arrests. Teague has never been seen or heard from again. [5]
[edit] Revitalization
It was decided to replace all Robert Taylor Homes with a mixed-income community in low-rise buildings as part of a federal block grant received for the purpose from the HOPE VI federal program.[4] In 1996, HOPE VI federal funds were granted specifically for off-site Taylor replacement housing. The Chicago Housing Authority moved out all residents by the end of 2005. On 8 March 2007, the last remaining building was demolished. As of 2007, a total of 2,300 low rise residential homes and apartments, seven new and renovated community facilities, and a number of retail and commercial spaces are to be built in place of the old high-rise buildings. The development costs are expected to total an estimated $583 million. Part of the redevelopment is the renaming of the area to "Legends South".
Concurrent with the demolition of the Robert Taylor Homes, Chicago's murder rate has sunk to the lowest the city has seen since the 1960s.[citation needed] In 2004, a record low 448 homicides took place in Chicago. Even with the population growing, the homicide rate has continued to shrink.[citation needed]
[edit] Research
Because of the standardized housing and near homogeneous demographics, the RTH cluster was an ideal location for studying the effects of urban living and lack of "green space" on the human condition. This type of research in environmental psychology was most clearly demonstrated by a group of studies done by Francis Kuo and William Sullivan of the Landscape and Human Health Laboratory (formerly the Human-Environment Research Laboratory) at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. |
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Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:55 pm |
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twotap
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And of course if they do have a male role model its probably one like this.
Judge Issues Arrest Warrant for Rapper
2007-12-26 14:37:54
By M.R. KROPKO Associated Press Writer
CLEVELAND (AP) — Yung Joc failed to show up at his arraignment Wednesday on a felony charge of carrying a concealed weapon and was considered a fugitive, a prosecutor said.
A judge issued an arrest warrant for the rapper, whose real name is Jasiel Robinson.
Robinson, 27, of Atlanta, was accused of attempting to take a loaded gun onto a Delta Air Lines flight Sunday and was charged with carrying a concealed weapon, police said.
Cuyahoga County assistant prosecutor Gayle Williams said Robinson was considered a fugitive.
Robinson's attorney, Stanley Jackson Jr., told the court Robinson had personal financial and family obligations. Jackson has said his client maintains his innocence.
Robinson was arrested early Sunday at Cleveland Hopkins International Airport at a standard security checkpoint as he was heading to a departing flight. Police said they found a semiautomatic handgun and ammunition in his carry-on bag.
He told police he didn't know the weapon was there and was released Monday on $50,000 bond, authorities said.
"This court is well aware of the environment of every airport across this nation with those very safety issues," Williams said, emphasizing the serious nature of the charge, which carries a possible jail sentence of up to 18 months.
"He is alleged to have taken a loaded firearm with 20 rounds of ammunition into the airport. It is also alleged that some of the ammunition in his possession was armor piercing."
On Wednesday, Municipal Judge Michael John Ryan doubled Robinson's bail to $100,000.
Robinson's Web site says he spends much of his time in Atlanta and has 11 brothers and sisters.
———
Yung Joc performs during the 6th annual BET Awards in this June 27, 2006 file photo, in Los Angeles. (AP Photo/Chris Carlson, file) |
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Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:21 pm |
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Ted Jankowski
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Demeralda, I'm not trying to be rude. But, where are you getting your information.
quote:
You find ONE or TWO anecdotal cases (provided these people really were as poor as they claim), and you extrapolate out things that just don't stand up under the scrutiny of serious academic study.
They sure do! The majority of Crime is comitted by a small number of people. Just look at Flint. What percent of the population Lives in POverty and what percent commits crime? 33 poverty <2 percent committ the majority of crime. Most crimes are committed by the same people over and over until they are caught. So what happens to the 31 percent?
Get out on the street and talk to people. You'll find a lot more people that grew up in poverty that have never committed a crime than you will find that have.
OK, I read all that you have posted...??? What are you trying to say?
If you want to debate Public housing. I'd be glad to. We could discuss the difference from when it was first created and what it was turned into. Because I believe you find we will agree on most issues dealing with public housing. Once we look at it's complete history.
But, as far as Crime, Poverty and Unemployment being related as causal, meaning poverty and unemployment causing crime. You won't find any evidence.
See, I used to think like most. That Uneployment and poverty affected criminal behaviour. It wasn't until I started actually looking at the numbers and the trends that I was blown away how oppisite the the truth really is. |
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Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:24 pm |
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twotap
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Well since were quoting articles and statistics  Requiem for the Leftist Welfare Utopia
by Carey Roberts
Leftists have devised a simple yet amazingly effective formula to engender social discord: break up the family, marginalize fathers, and then blame the whole mess on men.
The pattern can be traced back to LBJs Great Society which spawned welfare programs that withheld benefits as long as dad was around. Then came Roe v. Wade, which disenfranchised fathers from the most fundamental decisions involving their unborn young.
Next, no-fault divorce laws set the stage for widescale child custody awards to moms. And finally draconian child support programs sent low-income dads shuffling off to debtors prison.
Judging by Census Bureau reports, this anti-father jihad made stunning in-roads. From 1960 to 1990, the number of American children living with their biological fathers plunged from 82% to 62%.
Of course unfathered children portend the continued unraveling of the social order and the rise of the welfare state. Leftists see nothing wrong with that.
But now people are catching on to the game plan and dads are staging a comeback. State lawmakers are passing laws that level the playing field for divorcing dads. Congress is weighing a $300 million bill to promote marriage and fatherhood. And most important, the precipitous rise in fatherless households has finally begun to level off.
Of course, this comes as bad news to the feminist-inspired Left. In their mind, every father that is removed from their childrens lives is one step closer to the matriarchal nirvana. And the Left has no intention of relinquishing its hegemony over the social welfare debate.
So in August the California Supreme Court ruled on a child custody case involving two lesbians and concluded, We perceive no reason why both parents of a child cannot be women. Last month the Public Broadcasting Service aired a documentary that libels divorcing fathers who seek child custody as abusers and batterers. [www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2005/1109roberts.html]
And Supreme Court nominee Samuel Alito is now under fire because gasp! he once argued that husbands should be notified before their wives obtained an abortion. [http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/alito/ppcasey102191opn.html]
There are two recent publications which affirm the abiding truth that fathers are one of our nations most treasured natural resources.
Just last week the National Fatherhood Initiative released the findings of a national marriage survey. The report found that nine out of ten Americans believe that as a rule, the best place for childrearing is a household with a father and mother. Even more interesting, 97% of respondents believe that fathers are just as important as mothers for the proper development of children. [www.fatherhood.org/research.asp]
And now Senator Rick Santorum has come out with a book that outlines an ambitious agenda to reclaim America from the Leftist onslaught. It Takes a Family documents how welfare programs have only deepened dependence of the poor on government largesse -- and along the way tweaks the nose of Hillary Clintons It Takes a Village.
For example, in 1965, 21% of all American children under the age of 18 lived in poverty. Thirty years and billions of welfare dollars later, the number of American children living in poverty was guess what? 21%.
Add to that the rise of fractured families, illegitimacy, and the increased number of children at risk of abuse and neglect, and the failure of the welfare entitlement system is beyond dispute.
Santorum views dads as lead players in the nations moral revitalization: a community that is short on fathers is almost always short on generalized trust or social capital.
Sen. Santorum is especially critical of our gender-biased divorce system: It is one of the few places left in our culture where sexism is not only condoned but virtually celebrated. Plus, dads often must contend with ex-wives who often make it difficult for the fathers of their children to visit.
Santorum highlights the epidemic of Black men who have fallen into the clutches of the criminal justice system. At any given day, 12% of Black men ages 20-34 are in prison. Think about what that means: fewer fathers, fewer husbands, and fewer male breadwinners, he laments.
If anyone who doubts the failure of the Leftist social agenda, recall the haunting images of the women and children stranded in the rising flood waters in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. As the levees melted away, government officials remained oblivious to the impending disaster.
So where were the men? Married men had already whisked their families out of harms way.
And all the others? They had been casually cast aside, reassured that their mothers, sisters, girlfriends, and children would be safe and secure in the governments social safety net.
Yes, it only takes a village. |
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Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:37 pm |
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Dave Starr
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| Right on, TT. |
_________________
I used to care, but I take a pill for that now.
Pushing buttons sure can be fun.
When a lion wants to go somewhere, he doesn’t worry about how many hyenas are in the way.
Paddle faster, I hear banjos. |
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Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:13 pm |
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00SL2
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quote:
Ted Jankowski schreef:
So because I didn't have a job and was living below the poverty level. Yet for some reason I didn't become a crmiinal? Why is that?
Only you can answer that for certain, but my guess is because you had the love and support of family, you have a conscience, and you have enough dignity and self-respect that you would not consider doing anything illegal. Also, don't know when you went into the military but you wouldn't be a proud Marine unless you were a good Marine, and you would do nothing to spoil that record. Adversity builds character, and you're a classic example of that!
As for all the stats you like to quote, though, my eyes kinda glaze over and I consider most of them as does Demeralda.
Last edited by 00SL2 on Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:48 pm |
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