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terrybankert
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I suggest this topic , Flint School Closing" be moved to this thread. I will begin to repost the Flint Journal Articles they only have a 14-DAY ARCHIVE.
I will get it started. You will have to help to keep information in front of the public from an independent source as Flint goes about the business of closing schools.
Sooner or later a lot of parents are going to want to know whats going on. Anyone have any other suggestions?
FLINT SCHOOL CLOSING! Your Citizen information exchange.
Later on when we reference a posted article you can give the link or post address..
Please consider being a Flint School closing “Issue Docent “
and help lead us through this emotional and complicated topic.
You do not need to use your real name just keep us factually correct.
The School Board might suggest that someone on their side of the aisle perform this function also
Rap, OOSL2 and biggie9 already function much like this plus adding their own opinion.
Docent definition see
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/docent
And as one poster so clearly stated once. Lets keep the kid crap off this thread, please.
Terry Bankert
11/17/07
attorneybankert@yahoo.com
CONTENTS
INTRODUCTION- http://flinttalk.com/viewtopic.php?p=18427#18427
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1ST Community meeting schedule -
http://flinttalk.com/viewtopic.php?p=18428#18428
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RAP on disipline
http://www.flinttalk.com/post-18515.html#18515
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Workshop J.Richardson What is a Great School
http://www.flinttalk.com/viewtopic.php?p=18517#18517
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Workshop Paul Rozycki outlines a history of public schools in Michigan.
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=2002293748
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Workshop David Grant how Beecher addressed the problems facing Flint Schools.
Part three
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=2011191656
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how schools are funded
This is part 4 of a series of video posting of Public Development. They are from a 2007 workshop on Flint Board of Education issues. This thread has an objective of providing school information and promoting public debate on school closings as the Flint Board of Education moves towards closing many of our Flint Schools. Join in.
Part Four
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=2012925757
On February 10,2007 concerned Flint citizens again gathered to address the future of the Flint Public School System. This Discussion took place at a workshop sponsored by attorney Terry Bankert. In this installment, mayoral candidates Dale Weighill & Norm Bryant address the audience. Then, former State Rep. Jack Minore discusses how schools are funded.
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Part Five
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=2012977945
posted also to Flint Talk
http://flinttalk.com/viewtopic.php?p=18860#18860
On February 10, concerned Flint citizens again gathered to address the future of the Flint Public School System. In this installment, former State Rep. Jack Minore continues his discussion of how schools are funded.
Thank you Public Development and all the speakers.
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11/17/07
It's going to be tough, but emotions & politics CAN'T be part of the decisions.
We have twice the capacity we need.
11/17/07
Flint schools have too much room for the students they have, but I also hear that class sizes are too big for teachers to handle... is this because there aren't enough teachers? or the teachers aren't qualified to handle the students?
11/17/07
Do we need 3 badly performing high schools in the north end? Could we get by with 2?
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11/19/07
If you could get more parents on the same page with teachers they could support at home what is taught in the classroom.
Discipline techniques can be taught to parents..if they are involved in school activities.
Parents of KDG students can learn the same disciplines taught in classrooms. Use your words..rather than cry or hit. No running in hallways..because you can hurt yourself.
Peace Options can be taught, Compromise, Apologize, Walk away or Get help rather than fight.
Schools seem to be scared of parents these days but if more parents were welcomed they would learn by observing how to use these same tools at home that are taught in the classroom.
Consistancy of discipline.
These are the rules expected of your child.
A child can follow school rules all day then let them come to science fair with mom or dad and they will tear through the aisles, knocking down projects with no word from guardians.
A teacher needs to say..you are at school these are the rules stiill apply.
If parents were to visit classrooms during class they would also learn the techniques and rules and apply them at home.
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11/20/07
I think for at least my part of the Flint school district (Flint Central) Flint Central should be a regular high school like in the other good schools in our county but I was one of the very few people that supports tradional high schools. People all seem to think that you need to keep younger kids away from the bad older kids. I think they're wrong because these "bad" older kids are the ones that are actually staying in school.
I am also disgruntled because my high school "Central" is rated as being in poor condition (12/2002) even though I think it looks better than what I have seen at Northern.
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11/20/07
We have double the needed capacity now. Why close buildings, then build a new one? Is Central so bad that it's beyond repair? I understand that there's a need for a high school in that part of Flint, but given the current economic situation in Flint, I can't see building a new school. New facilities are nice, but we have to be practical.
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11/27/07
That said, I'm also a pragmatist. I know that the secret to a good education has little to do with the building in which it is housed. A good education is all about fine teachers, disciplined and motivated students, involved parents, and high standards. (And it has nothing to do with uniforms---but that's another thread.) I know that programs like Whittier's are often accused of being "elitist" and full of "frills". I know the odds of the taxpayers ever building a new building for such a school are slim to nil, and I would certainly never trade the strict admission policy for more modern facilities.
The other concern a new building evokes is that old real estate axiom, "location, location, location". Where would such a building be built? It is my firm belief that this school needs ready access to the facilities of either the College and Cultural Center or U/M. It needs to either be very near its current location or downtown. Any other location would destroy the concept.
When you ask me how I feel about a state-of-the-art facility for this school, the temptation is to drool at the possibilities. I just don't want to see it ruined in an attempt to "upgrade" it. Sometimes a low profile has advantages, ya know? I also know that a new building with great technology and a center of the city location has the potential of building a reputation that would attract disenchanted suburban students and that's a lot of what education has come to---the battle for state aid $$.
The question is if the district can come up with the funding and the commitment to establish this school as a standard of excellence---and to hold off the disgruntled taxpayers who cannot distinguish between "equal rights" and "equality of opportunity".
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11/27/07
Laptops and buildings are 2 different things. Given the same equipment, how does a new building educate kids better than an old one? Northern is in a newer building than Central. Does that mean that the kids at Northern are getting a better education?
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11/27/07
Northern ceased being a new school years ago.
Today's schools have adequate wiring for today's technology. They have state-of-the-art science labs and theater and broadcast facilities. They have distance learning settings. They are built for a different world than the schools of the 20's.
I'll tell yiou straight up. I love old buildings and charming architecture. I live in an 80 year old home. I think every school should have the beautiful of oak woodwork and library shelving BUT it doesn't work for this school.
Whittier was built to house about 1200 kids (my guess---there were 1500 there when I attended the school). It was built to be a junior high. It now houses 260 kids from grades 7-10 with grades 11 and 12 to be added. A new school should probably be built for about 600 students. Whittier has very large classrooms, but wonderfully small classes. The gym and locker room facilities are woefully inadequate. The building is drafty in winter and stifling in summer---there is no air conditioning. Back in the day the school was built with wood and metal shops and home economic rooms that are relics of a different era. This building is under-utilized and expensive to heat. Realistically it is in serious need of upgrading that will still not fit the needs of 21st century kids.
Even if it was in tip top shape, would you want to still be driving a 1920's auto everyday? Sometimes things simply become obsolete.
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11/28/07
Yes Dave, sudents in modern buildings are able to obtain a more complete educational experience than students in obsolete buildings.
And this city is NOT lacking in teachers who care and kids who want to learn. I see them daily and I resent deeply your implication. I'd love to know the last time you entered ANY school building.
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11/28/07
Some posters here obviously consider technology to be an unnecessary "frill", I'm not among them.
Nor am I. Math, reading, accurate history (not the liberal filtered version) and science which if you change it to "Applied Science" covers the technical part of education. Any student well versed in the above will be prepared to face the real world. Well leave the "Indoctrination" or shaping ones political preference part up to the childs parents for they (Sorry teachers its not your job so stop attempting to do it) know what is best for their child.
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11/28/07
"Schools in general" means nothing. It's a generalization that is used by those attempting to support an unsupportable opinion. I get tired of schools being targeted for unfair, generalized criticism by those rarely in contact with them.
b]Flint schools is generalizing? Does every kid in Flint have the opportunity to get into a program like Whittier's if they're qualified and desire such a program? You're talking about Whittier; I'm talking about ALL Flint schools. There's a 14 year old boy on my block that only goes to school long enough to slip out the door & hang with his buddies. His mom does everything she can to get him to go and he flat refuses. The Police pick him up & he acts like it's a joke. What do the schools offer for kids like him? Threaten to have his mom arrested for neglect when she is doing everything she knows how to do to get him to go to school? [/b]
I also was in a college preparatory program in high school and did very well. However I had nowhere near two hours of homework nightly.
I don't know how many students today take a program such as you describe, but neither do you, do you? I DO know what is required at Whittier and it more rigorous than that you describe. The school is aiming for an IB program within the next year or two. Additionally the new state-mandated curriculum is currently being phased in across the state and ALL students will be required to increase the work load to more than what you descibe.
I took those classes because I wanted to. I had a choice of what classes to take & that's what I chose. There were no counselors involved, either. Two hours of homework a night was no big deal.
Personally I find that ludicrous, not all students are college material. Seems to me we ought to be growing the tech centers instead of burning out kids without the desire to continue their education past high school. Look it up on state education website.
To make a comment about these kids "learning to write a coherent sentence" demonstrates your ignorance of this school. I find it to be a self-serving indictment of a school you know nothing about and teachers and children you have never met. It's an attempt to continue taking a cheapshot at a district that has had more than its share of cheapshots. Take a visit to Whittier and then return and we'll talk. Until you do that your "questions" merely demonstrate your personal and uninformed bias.
AGAIN, I'm talking schools in general, and the kids on my street in particular. I'm not taking cheap shots; I'm relating what I see. I'm not against new technology, but I fail to see why it's can't be implemented in existing buildings. Flint's population is shrinking, as is it's tax base. Where would the money come from to build new schools? Has there ever been a study done to investigate the cost of upgrading existing buildings?
I would love to see the current buildings renovated. However, after renovating two old homes, I can assure you that renovation is far more expensive than building new---and you still have buildings that don't fit today's needs.
I assume the money would come from a bond. I don't think that's the correct funding imanner for building the schools so necessary in the rural and urban areas of this country, but it is, at this time, the best method we have.
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12/05/07
Central High school
That building is sinking! Needs major work. Would that Mott College or Culteral Center or even Ruth Mott foundation take on the dinosaur.
They would not take it for $1.
It has great programs, Beautiful areas, defunct areas and Millions of dollars of cost to operate and not even maintain.
it is in a central location albeit low lying. To build at same location or renovate would be the same extensive cost.
Should all Flint's students bear the wieght to restore or operate this "historic monument"?
Flint's youth deserve a state of the art educational facility with.. if nothing else Clean air to breath.
Clean oxygen for young minds!
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12/05/07
And I think you're dead wrong about this one. Central is not Whittier. The issues are different. Central is properly-sized, has modern athletic facilities, and many of the other amenities necessary for a high school.
I realize we live in Fint Michigan and that we still, after all these years, struggle with "new car mindset". Newer must be better. I don't believe that.
Is everyone familiar with the Historic Trust for National Preservation? You might find 1. http://www.nationaltrust.org/issues/schools/ interesting
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Last edited by terrybankert on Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:17 pm; edited 16 times in total |
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Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:53 am |
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terrybankert
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Meetings set on district's school facilities plan
HOMETOWN HEADLINES
http://www.mlive.com/news/flintjournal/index.ssf?/base/news-47/1194281455201050.xml&coll=5#continue
FLINT
THE FLINT JOURNAL FIRST EDITIONMonday, November 05, 2007
By Melissa Burdenmburden@flintjournal.com • 810.766.6316
FLINT - The Flint School District will hold four public meetings this month beginning Nov. 12 on its facilities plan, which may result in closing buildings.
The meetings, to gather and share information with parents and others on the district's building needs, are scheduled at four secondary buildings. The meetings will start at 7 p.m. and will be conducted in building cafeterias. Refreshments will be served.
Sessions are:
Nov. 12 at Flint Northwestern Academy, 2138 W. Carpenter Road.
1.Nov. 13 at Flint Central Academy, 601 Crapo St.
Nov. 19 at Flint Northern Academy, 3284 Mackin Road.
Nov. 20 at Flint Southwestern Academy, 1420 W. 12th St.
The district is putting together a community committee of about 30 people who will review building data and set criteria for prioritizing schools and offer suggestions on which schools should consolidate or close. The plan also could recommend building new schools or demolishing closed buildings.
The administration will review the group's suggestions and make final recommendations for the Flint Board of Education to consider.
- Melissa Burden
posted to Flint Talk by Terry Bankert 11/18/07
http://flinttalk.com/viewtopic.php?p=18428#18428
This thread introduction can be found at.
http://flinttalk.com/viewtopic.php?p=18427#18427
PLEASE CONSIDER ATTENDING ONE OF THESE SESSIONS AND POST YOUR NOTES HERE.
Schools' top job dangles
1. Thompson says she wants job permanently
FLINT
THE FLINT JOURNAL FIRST EDITIONTuesday, November 20, 2007
By Melissa Burdenmburden@flintjournal.com • 810.766.6316
http://www.mlive.com/news/flintjournal/index.ssf?/base/news-47/1195572055142740.xml&coll=5&thispage=1
QUICK TAKE
Superintendent status
Interim Flint school chief Linda Thompson's nine-month contract, inked May 11, 2007, expires in mid-February. If both parties agree, there's an option for a 30-day renewal.
Thompson receives base pay of $142,500 annually, plus use of a district vehicle and $600 monthly stipend for expenses.
FLINT - Who will lead Flint's schools into the next school year and beyond?
The Board of Education soon will have to answer that question, with interim Superintendent Linda Thompson's contract up in less than three months.
To date, the board's plans are unclear on whether it will name the home-grown Thompson as permanent superintendent or launch a national search for a new boss.
"These are big decisions, and they need to be addressed," board Secretary Paul Jordan said.
Thompson, the first woman to head the district, has said in recent meetings that she's not going anywhere and has indicated she'd like the top job full-time.
"I will be the superintendent if they will have me," she said Monday.
Thompson's nine-month contract expires in mid-February, but there's a 30-day renewal clause if both parties agree. Thompson or the board could terminate the contract with a 30-day notice, said Kendall Williams, the board's attorney.
The board said when it named Thompson to the post in May that it wanted to wait until five new members took their seats before deciding whether to conduct a superintendent search.
But with no serious talk of search firms or hiring Thompson permanently, some board members such as Joe L. McMobley II expect Thompson to stay on until at least next spring.
"We're not in the position to hire a new superintendent anytime soon," McMobley said. "Mrs. Thompson is going to be here at least through the end of the year, unless she gets fed up with us."
1. In recent months, the new board has wrangled over what goals to evaluate Thompson on during her interim stint. Jordan said the evaluation could help the board make decisions on the future of a district superintendent.
"Somewhere between now and February, we have to get her evaluated," board President Vera J. Perry said.
A draft evaluation includes areas of culture/climate and customer service, fiscal responsibility, completing a facilities plan and improved student performance.
"We need something a little more that we measure her with or against," said board member Antoinette Lockett.
McMobley said he had a hard time accepting the goals because they lacked filling a key administrative post in human resources and include anything "about the reform plan, which is really what we're all about."
The board again will discuss Thompson's evaluation goals during a meeting tentatively scheduled for Nov. 29.
4
Last edited by terrybankert on Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:29 am |
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Dave Starr
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It's going to be tough, but emotions & politics CAN'T be part of the decisions.
We have twice the capacity we need.
As enrollment drops, so does funding.
Close the buildings in the worst condition and highest maintenance costs.
The core curriculum is the most important. Make sure it's fully funded before even considering anything else.
Board members and others directly involved - Ignore the political ramifications, grit your teeth and do what will ensure ALL the kids have the opportunity to get a solid education.
Waiting for the bickering, backstabbing, whining, and trying to make race a part of this. |
_________________
I used to care, but I take a pill for that now.
Pushing buttons sure can be fun.
When a lion wants to go somewhere, he doesn’t worry about how many hyenas are in the way.
Paddle faster, I hear banjos. |
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Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:57 am |
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Tegan
F L I N T O I D
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I'm not quite up to speed with the situation, but I feel like I've heard a lot of conflicting stories and I would like to clarify.
Flint schools have too much room for the students they have, but I also hear that class sizes are too big for teachers to handle... is this because there aren't enough teachers? or the teachers aren't qualified to handle the students? whats up. |
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Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:30 am |
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last time here
Guest
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this is interesting. i have a friend who teaches elementary. he has
31 students in his class. too many to teach effectively. actually the
closings could be a blessing IF student class size is also adjusted
MUCH lower...  |
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Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:57 am |
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Dave Starr
F L I N T O I D
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| Back in the day - walked 12 miles to school, uphill both ways - 30 was a small class. Most classes had 40-50, & the teachers had no problems teaching effectively. Of course, back then, teachers were allowed to discipline the students. |
_________________
I used to care, but I take a pill for that now.
Pushing buttons sure can be fun.
When a lion wants to go somewhere, he doesn’t worry about how many hyenas are in the way.
Paddle faster, I hear banjos. |
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Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:49 pm |
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twotap
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You got that right. I would sure like to see some of these class disrupting punks deal with the teachers we had. Their are still some lockers at my old high school that has the impression of some smart ass being slammed into it by our football coach or our no neck shopteacher who played some pro football and could swing a 4 ft paddle like you would not believe. From badass to wimpass in one easy lesson.  |
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Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:07 pm |
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Adam
F L I N T O I D
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| Do we need 3 badly performing high schools in the north end? Could we get by with 2? |
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Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:53 pm |
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last time here
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ahhhhhhh, the swats i got at whittier....i learned REAL fast!!
"uphill both ways" ha ha ha ha ha ha |
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Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:14 pm |
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Dave Starr
F L I N T O I D
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| Waist deep snow, too. |
_________________
I used to care, but I take a pill for that now.
Pushing buttons sure can be fun.
When a lion wants to go somewhere, he doesn’t worry about how many hyenas are in the way.
Paddle faster, I hear banjos. |
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Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:23 pm |
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Dave Starr
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
Adam schreef:
Do we need 3 badly performing high schools in the north end? Could we get by with 2?
3 high schools in the north end???
Northern
Northwestern
???? |
_________________
I used to care, but I take a pill for that now.
Pushing buttons sure can be fun.
When a lion wants to go somewhere, he doesn’t worry about how many hyenas are in the way.
Paddle faster, I hear banjos. |
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Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:23 pm |
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shintz62
F L I N T O I D
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I am a 68 yr old retired Flint Teacher. Children in your day had discipline at home. My Grand child has 5 different baby sitters. Her 2 'nd grade teacher is just one more person, in addition to her 2 parents, telling her what to do. With the teacher, she is disciplined in 8 different ways every week. Today's teachers need combat pay. If you walk down the street and see 2 kids together, you shiver a little. Then you send a teacher into a room of 31 and expect her to change something. AND YOU KNOW WHAT, most teachers do. Until you have taught any grade of children for one year, NEVER, speak negatively of teachers.
And in my day, Flint Schools were studied by educators from all over the world because of our innovative system.
The thing that is wrong with Flint is that it created GM. It made GM synonymous with quality. AND, GM divorced Flint and ran off to look for cheaper labor. If no one can afford to buy the cars, you can't sell cars. Most of Big Business was built on the backs of hard working proud Americans. And then they went looking for cheap labor.
I would bet if someone got all the caring Flintites together in one place, they would come up with a plan to restore Flint. |
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Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:29 pm |
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last time here
Guest
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damn..........i like that guy!!!!!!   |
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Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:55 pm |
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Dave Starr
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| We also had neighbors telling our parents when we acted up. Today, if a neighbor says anything, they're told to butt out. Also, if a parent disciplines their kid today, the kid calls the Police & claims child abuse. |
_________________
I used to care, but I take a pill for that now.
Pushing buttons sure can be fun.
When a lion wants to go somewhere, he doesn’t worry about how many hyenas are in the way.
Paddle faster, I hear banjos. |
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Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:16 am |
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terrybankert
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
Dave Starr schreef:
We also had neighbors telling our parents when we acted up. Today, if a neighbor says anything, they're told to butt out. Also, if a parent disciplines their kid today, the kid calls the Police & claims child abuse.
How can we instill these values in todays young parents?
Do we really want the crack head sexual predator neighbor paying any attention to our children.?
Do we want to
not
pay attention to kids with permanent scars because drunk parents beat them till blood was drawn.
Its a different day. I am still looking for Lassie!
Your values
do need
to be brought to the public debate. These valuse can be instilled into a school system.
They are good values,
its just that this is a new day.
All of us who care about Flint MI , and I presume most of us do, should be involved in this school closing, and quality of education debate on the table in-front of the Flint Board of education.
Go to one of the 4 community meeting then speak up! Please...... |
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Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:27 am |
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