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untanglingwebs
El Supremo
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In a speech at the University of michigan, President Obama discussed the need to maintain "a basic level of civility in our public debate." He also noted that problems can't be solved if all we do is tear each other down, demonize the person and question their views and judgement.
Last edited by untanglingwebs on Thu Oct 06, 2016 9:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:56 am |
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BillPayer
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
untanglingwebs schreef:
In a speech at the University of michigan, President Obama discussed the need to maintain "a basic level of civility in our public debate." He also noted that problems can't be solved f all we do is tear each other down, demonize the person and question their views and judgement.
Quick reply, have you talked to a Trump supporter before? You do have good idealism, but sometimes it's just not practical. The argument both for and against it is the same. Both sides are always entrenched and embattled in a debate much larger than the task at hand. That means unless you do question their larger views and motives you will lose the war. Both sides always so this, it's a catch 22 and not a strategy.
To clarify, to understand the otherwise you must actually call their views into question to understand the reasoning behind them and their motivations. It's the only way to see into the beast of a political system. |
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Thu Oct 06, 2016 9:10 am |
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untanglingwebs
El Supremo
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You state you are an east sider. Years ago, I was given the opportunity to review a number of documents from various hate groups in Michigan and Pennsylvania. I found their literature to be grossly disturbing. At that time the Southern Poverty law Center indicated a Knights Templar group was located on the east side. There was also a KKK group on Franklin, just south of Franklin. Confederate flags flew all over the east side along with some of their graffiti. These groups were absent for a year, but now Southern Poverty Law center shows a group in Davison.
The old Winchester Hospital, now demolished, on Flushing Road had bot gang graffiti and graffiti of the Satanic Nazi Warriors from Flushing. They wore military style garb and guarded the buildings they called the Crows Nest. My friend and i could hear them as we photographed some of the vilest hate graffiti around. They used a fictional Babylonian book called the Necronomican. They depicted killing black people, black women slashed between their open legs, and black men hung. They mixed Norse symbols with Babylonian demons calling for the destruction of humans.
These same ugly images are still being shown to depict minority men and women, especially politicians. These white hate groups embrace Trump and I am not in support of hate! |
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Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:08 am |
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untanglingwebs
El Supremo
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Rev. Harper, now deceased, was a photographer for the Concerned Pastors newspaper in the early 90's. He was asked to interview the KKK members who announced an event for statewide members at the home on Franklin. He had to ask God twice before he agreed. Police were stationed on the street and Judge Larry Stecco agreed to be the photographer.
A young couple donned their robes for him and the newspaper showed photos of long guns stacked in the corner of one room. Later we learned the house was raided and then caught fire. We saw the young male from the house at the Howell KKK event in Howell. He was so likable it was hard to reconcile him with the views he had on race.
I never knew what a "Whigger" was until I saw it on a building near S. Dort and Atherton. For a period of time Burton, around Bendle School, had a lot of graffiti.
This race hatred is alive and well and exhibited on M-Live, Facebook, and any forum they can find. This election has thrown race into the spotlight. We don't need it with our council. |
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Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:22 am |
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untanglingwebs
El Supremo
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Concerned Pastors deliver blistering salvo at Councilman Scott Kincaid, City Council
Posted By East Village Magazine on Oct 3, 2016
By Jan Worth-Nelson
A powerful consortium of Flint clergy, the Concerned Pastors for Social Action, a group which has consistently weighed in in support of Mayor Karen Weaver, today stood in the lobby of Flint City Hall and delivered a blistering salvo at the Flint City Council.
In particular, they directed their ire at Councilman Scott Kincaid, who Pastor Reginald Flynn of Foss Avenue Baptist Church said was engaging in “plantation politics” and should apologize. At least one speaker, later identified as not a pastor and who said he was speaking as a citizen and not for the Concerned Pastors, called for Kincaid to be recalled.
What set off the pastors, according to Pastor Allen Overton, who led the remarks, were comments reported in The Flint Journal Friday in which Kincaid said the council had tabled three motions at their Sept. 26 meeting to “teach the Mayor a lesson.”
According to Friday’s Flint Journal, Kincaid said, “…the mayor believes she can enact things without the approval from this legislative body,”
“I think that this council needs to send a loud and clear message to the mayor that she’s not a dictator,” the Flint Journal reported that Kincaid said.
Overton called Kincaid’s comments “unmerited, unwanted and unprecedented,” adding that “taking personal jabs at the Mayor of the City of Flint cannot be tolerated.”
“Our mayor is not some little slave girl,” Flynn said. “She is the chief executive officer of this city and her position demands our respect. And so what you have before you are several clergy who are standing in unity, crossing racial and denominational lines, and saying ‘enough is enough.’ Time out for the gamesmanship.”
Flynn added that Kincaid’s comments and the council’s actions had “descended into the depths of political immaturity.”
“The faith community is watching”
Amid a chorus of amens and “yeah, Reverend,” and “that’s right,” from those in the crowd, Flynn continued, “The faith community is very much watching, and are going to be very much involved in the process of ensuring that the mayor that WE elected is able to carry out her duties and functions as we have asked her to do through the electoral process. So we stand here in unity today informing the senior city councilman and those aligned with him, watch what you do.”
Pastor Herman Miller of Metropolitan Baptist Tabernacle, who came to Flint 13 months ago from North Carolina, where he also served as a city council member, said since coming to Flint, what he has observed has been “frustrating, disheartening, and sometimes downright embarrassing.”
Miller called Flint’s city government “fractured and dysfunctional” and declared, “we have continued to digress and devolve into a cesspool of personality conflicts, incessant fighting and stagnation, and all this during a time that the citizens of Flint need us the most.
“It concerns me because people across the United States are watching what is going on in Flint, the people in Lansing are watching. Right now we are justifying the notion that we do not have the capacity to govern ourselves. The citizens of Flint need us standing together fighting for them and not fighting with one another.”
He said he wished he could “lock all of them up in a room somewhere” until they got on the same page.
Citing the African proverb, “When two elephants fight, only the grass suffers,” Miller concluded, “I implore all our elected officials to cease all the name calling and do everything within your power to turn our city around.’
The declarations from the Concerned Pastors are the latest chapter in an ongoing dispute between the mayor and the council over who will pick up trash in the city of Flint. The Mayor favors Rizzo Environmental Services and the city council, by an 8-1 vote, have continued to argue for Republic Services, who have been Flint’s trash contractors since they were selected by then-emergency manager Ed Kurtz in 2013.
Water activist sees connections to EMs
The dispute has been going on since June, when the city council voted against hiring Rizzo, whom she said had offered “the lowest responsible bid.” She then vetoed the council vote, leading to a series of suits by the council, with Kincaid the key figure in seeking injunctions to stop the switch to Rizzo.
One of those watching the Concerned Pastors’s presentation was water activist Claire McClinton, who bemoaned how the latest dispute has, she said, usurped the city’s focus on solving the water crisis. And she said she sees something deeper at work, asserting that the “emergency manager political model and the water problem are one and the same.”
She said, “We would not even be talking about garbage had not the EM, Ed Kurtz, outsourced the garbage, and sold our trucks. This is what happens when you privatize stuff.”
She added, “The city’s water problems go back to the emergency management and the privatization of the city’s trash. This is what you get — the perception of corruption, back room deals — all of this gets engendered when you privatize. That has been lost in the debate.”
The tabled resolutions by the City Council leading to Kincaid’s remarks had to do with contracts for re-roofing the City Hall North Building, a three-year contract with an engineering firm for switchgear maintenance, and a contract with a private firm to conduct residential rental inspection services.
Attempts to contact Kincaid and Council President Kerry Nelson were not successful today — possibly because they were in a court-ordered mediation session about the trash dispute with city officials in the courtroom of Circuit Court Judge Joseph Farah.
As for the trash, when asked who would be picking up trash in the city this week, Steve Branch, Mayor Weaver’s chief of staff, said, “I have no idea.”
EVM editor Jan Worth-Nelson can be reached at janworth1118@gmail.com. |
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Thu Oct 06, 2016 6:43 pm |
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BillPayer
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OK dude, here's my non-"it wasn't racist" argument. What I believe, and what Kincaid should have said is we need to use law and order to keep mayor Weaver from pushing through a contract that we don't believe in.
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Now, what's wrong with what I said there? First off that's not a statement I stand behind if you do associate all the negative connotations to it. Let me point out a few.
Why did I refer to you as a dude? I believe it to be true that most people involved in local politics are male. And when someone is so connected to politics as you seem to be I would feel like this probably reinforces the likelihood that you're make. However, you could say my assumption makes me a misogynist. Because how do you know I didn't mean you're too smart to be a woman?
Why did I use the words law and order? Apparently during the civil rights movement the phrase "law and order" was used to mean we needed to control the blacks. I just learned this, but it makes sense they would have used that code word. So now how do I prove that I didn't mean to make a racist comment or have any racial implications in my statement?
The problem here is I clearly can't prove my intentions. You're free to think the statement means I'm a misogynist or that I'm racist. I can't prove otherwise. Now, should I apologize for my statement because someone could choose to construe my words in such a way?
If I were Kincaid, you and the CPSD say I should. And I disagree. What demanding an apology does is oppress my freedom of speech and give the opposition an advantage to push against me. Beyond that, we need to look at hypothetical Kincaids long public record to see if it matches the imprepretation. Only then is it appropriate to present claims to the public. The reasoning behind this is that 'hidden code words' are nothing more than conspiracy. To prove conspiracy you need to establish a direct pattern.
Is that what happened here? Did they build a case showing a record of blantent or even coded racism? Or did they simply seek to defame him as a racist over his one sentence?
I honestly do not know the answer to my questions because I didn't get to see the conference. So I did you? Or did they have a press release? And btw a few people claiming to be there (besides mlive) did say "they" were calling for a recall on Kincaid if he didn't apologize. Not sure I believe those words resignation calls came in any official capacity though. |
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Thu Oct 06, 2016 7:58 pm |
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untanglingwebs
El Supremo
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You need to stop trolling. Your comments are indeed sexist by inferring that women are not intelligent enough to be in politics. You could get into a real brawl saying that to the wrong woman.
You already have Number 407 furious on M-Live. Since so many comments were deleted and you and others were stating he might be racist, I can only imagine what was said.
By using a coded word as part of some "dog-whistle" politics you are espousing are merely being couched in words that appear to be racially neutral. Since you just learned about coded words You should know that they are used to demonize people of color without mentioning race. Take the use of "Welfare Queen" for example.
And it is the Concerned Pastors for Social Action (CPSA) and not CPSD.
There are at least two higher court cases that support the theory that words alone can support a racist intent, depending upon the context, the discriminatory intent, and other factors used.The attorneys challenged the constitutionality of this principle to no avail. You must know that 1st amendment rights can be limited. Think of the old "crying fire in a crowded building" example. Haters can not use free speech to justify the creation of a hostile work environment. |
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Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:21 am |
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BillPayer
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quote:
untanglingwebs schreef:
You need to stop trolling. Your comments are indeed sexist by inferring that women are not intelligent enough to be in politics. You could get into a real brawl saying that to the wrong woman.
You already have Number 407 furious on M-Live. Since so many comments were deleted and you and others were stating he might be racist, I can only imagine what was said.
By using a coded word as part of some "dog-whistle" politics you are espousing are merely being couched in words that appear to be racially neutral. Since you just learned about coded words You should know that they are used to demonize people of color without mentioning race. Take the use of "Welfare Queen" for example.
And it is the Concerned Pastors for Social Action (CPSA) and not CPSD.
There are at least two higher court cases that support the theory that words alone can support a racist intent, depending upon the context, the discriminatory intent, and other factors used.The attorneys challenged the constitutionality of this principle to no avail. You must know that 1st amendment rights can be limited. Think of the old "crying fire in a crowded building" example. Haters can not use free speech to justify the creation of a hostile work environment.
Blue 407 made comments starting over or more of the council members are Kincaids "field hands". Those are his quotes, and what I said was his comments were bringing racism into it. I want wrong, and didn't flasg his comments. But clearly he went on a crazy ranty steak. That's all on him.
And again, but inferring for what ever reason that you're a male I am sexist? So by inferring you're black I'm now racist? And by you inferring I am white, you are also racist?
See that's the problem with what 407 said. He used "slave hands" and all inferred that he was bringing racism into it. Which he was. But does that mean he's racist? Definitely not! Did I can him racist? Not really, but he went on and said some bad things. That's why others said he was racist. I merely was saying that wasn't the platform for hate speech.. Which I do include racist comments in... And his comments were racist against whites people. But saying he is racist is again different.
But you're totally missing the point here, probably on purpose. I don't think women aren't smart enough to be in politics, and I also don't think using the phrase law and order means I'm saying a racist comment even if I say it in the context of using "law and order" to keep a black mayor from abusing power. There are racial connotations which date back to the civil rights movement, but that's not how I choose to intend it. That doesn't make me wrong or guilty of anything.
If you choose to read into the comment by using context and patterns then it's up to you to prove that our shut up. So you see my point here? |
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Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:42 am |
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untanglingwebs
El Supremo
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Kincaid did not use "coded word". He tapped into the very essence of the South's roots and "old fashioned" racism where words like childish and needing discipline directly tie into slavery and the right to discipline a slave for insubordination. Kincaid, in his anger, used language that demonstrated an implicit bias against Weaver as a Black female by dismissing her as irrelevant, childish, and he had the right to discipline her. Kincaid spoke in anger and in retrospect he should have put more thought in his choice of words.
He was suggesting that she was not on an equal footing with him and was in some way inferior. He deliberately attempted to take away her sense of self worth and her dignity. His intention is irrelevant as in the past Kincaid has been able to justify validation of his opinions. By virtue of his lengthy tenure in the council, and his position in the , UAW Kincaid had established himself as a person of political and social power. All too often those with social power are believed.
We both have our opinions. I am not trying to change yours as you seem to be intractible in that respect. |
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Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:50 am |
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BillPayer
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quote:
untanglingwebs schreef:
Kincaid did not use "coded word". He tapped into the very essence of the South's roots and "old fashioned" racism where words like childish and needing discipline directly tie into slavery and the right to discipline a slave for insubordination. Kincaid, in his anger, used language that demonstrated an implicit bias against Weaver as a Black female by dismissing her as irrelevant, childish, and he had the right to discipline her. Kincaid spoke in anger and in retrospect he should have put more thought in his choice of words.
He was suggesting that she was not on an equal footing with him and was in some way inferior. He deliberately attempted to take away her sense of self worth and her dignity. His intention is irrelevant as in the past Kincaid has been able to justify validation of his opinions. By virtue of his lengthy tenure in the council, and his position in the , UAW Kincaid had established himself as a person of political and social power. All too often those with social power are believed.
We both have our opinions. I am not trying to change yours as you seem to be intractible in that respect.
My definition of a code word for the sake of this argument is a word which may have dual meanings or implications. In that sense he did use a code word. While childish has negative connotations they are relatively benign. However it can be construed to have sexist or racial connotations as well.
And again, a code word without a direct greater context is just a conspiracy. I've heard no case for habitual patterns of discriminatory language over his 30+ years he's had under public scrutiny. If that is the case then but all means present the case and I will support recalling him. |
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Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:58 am |
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BillPayer
F L I N T O I D
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I do agree to disagree though, hopefully you're not too mad at me. I'm not trolling anyone expect the person on mlive who people claim is Eric Mays (4realjoe)
Do check your private messages if you didn't though. I sent that early this morning and so mean what I said. Do or think what you will with the info I provided you. And if you do want one last comment go for it, I owe you that because you have been patient with me.. until today, grouch  |
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Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:46 am |
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untanglingwebs
El Supremo
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| It is my understanding that it was Woodson or one of his followers that said the Concerned Pastors were going to recall Kincaid. It was on the internet prior to the press conference. AC Dumas recorded the event. He and others, who know who the Pastors are, state that it was not one of them. AC Dumas asked the Pastors what they would do if Kincaid did not apologize. WJRT Channel 12 gave the correct response from the official spokesperson. The Flint Journal listened to someone who was not a Pastor. |
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Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:43 pm |
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untanglingwebs
El Supremo
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This was not posted by a Concerned Pastor!
Flint Councilman Scott Kincaid is holding up the City's business for 30 days, including votes for Flint's lead line replacement money coming in to Flint... just to teach Mayor Weaver a lesson for going with the lowest bidder in a garbage dispute... So the poisoned town of Flint MI. has to suffer for Kincaid's selfish reasons... when all along Flint will save $2 million dollars going with the lowest bidder...
Some officials and residents, are proposing to put that $2 million dollars savings towards purchasing Flint trash trucks, and readying themselves up for re-owning their city-owned trash company again, after Rizzo's contract is up...
"WATER WARRIOR" News... Get rid of Scott Kincaid, Teach him a lesson
Recall petition filed against Flint councilman Scott Kincaid
Recall language looking to unseat ninth ward city councilman Scott Kincaid has been filed with the Genesee County clerk's office.
MLIVE.COM|BY MLIVE.COM |
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Sat Oct 15, 2016 5:20 am |
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